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Post by Tim on May 13, 2023 16:11:44 GMT
As we have a Windows 11 thread, I thought I'd start a Linux thread for anything Linux related . . . I know, nobody uses it, but you never know? Probably just doing it for me really, as a journal of what I try out/get up to and to see if I can stay the course.
If anyone else has been on a Linux journey let me know what you've tried and if you're still a Linux user? There are so many different versions (distros) to choose from, so I've spent a fair bit of time trying them out to see what fits. So far I've had a go at all the variations of Linux Mint - Cinnamon, Mate, Xfce and the Debian version. Debian 11 itself plus all it's different desktops, Linux Lite and the latest version of Ubuntu, which is supposedly the most widely used desktop version of Linux. There are oodles more I could try, but for now I'm just going to explore Linux Mint Debian Edition (LMDE 5) and Debian itself. Linux Mint is very accessible for a Windows user and Debian is a bit more of a challenge for a newbie, but has a reputation for being incredibly stable and forms the backbone of other distributions - Ubuntu for example runs on Debian as do many others.
Right now I'm typing this on a test machine with Debian 11 and the Gnome desktop. . . but I expect you've fallen asleep by now! My regular 'daily driver' at the moment is LMDE 5. The desktop looks quite nice though I really like the taskbar being at the top, I find it makes for easier wrist movements   |
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Post by MartinT on May 13, 2023 16:27:22 GMT
Debian is a bit more of a challenge for a newbie, but has a reputation for being incredibly stable and forms the backbone of other distributions It is indeed. Although we don't have any open Linux servers at work, we have several systems that use Linux Debian as the operating system, including: - Smoothwall content filtering and inspection system (we can have upwards of 1500 devices online, with all internet access being monitored in real-time) - Sonicwall firewall and intrusion detection system - Mitel telephone system (our entire phone system is running as a VM, no hardware except IP phones) - Ruckus wi-fi controller system with 110 wireless APs - Ruckus BYOD wi-fi system They all run reliably 24/7 and it's just as well as they are all pretty much mission-critical for a large independent school. |
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Post by Tim on May 13, 2023 16:35:43 GMT
1500 devices . . . I didn't realise the school was that big Martin, that's a lot to keep an eye on.
I think a JRiver music server running 24/7 probably presents far less of a challenge for Debian than multi-os real time web filtering for that lot!
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Post by MartinT on May 13, 2023 16:45:50 GMT
1500 devices . . . I didn't realise the school was that big Martin, that's a lot to keep an eye on. It's even more impressive when you realise it's doing real-time content inspection of SSL encrypted website content, which represents nearly all websites with https secure comms. It does man-in-the-middle inspection. It grabs the incoming packet and decrypts it using the originating site's certificate, inspects it for inappropriate content, then re-encrypts it with its own certificate which the client machine has and sends it on. It does the same thing in reverse for search requests, posts etc. Astonishing that there is rarely any detectable slow-down. Sites are checked against blocklists updated every hour. Everything is logged, and it generates a daily safeguarding report for the safeguarding staff to deal with. All this is pretty much mandatory and part of school inspections these days, but we have our own systems whereas state schools use the (inferior) LEA service. |
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Post by MartinT on May 13, 2023 16:52:56 GMT
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Post by MikeMusic on May 13, 2023 17:05:51 GMT
From what I know Linux is in almost everything under something that is visible
Rock solid
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Post by petea on May 13, 2023 17:25:44 GMT
We have an intranet / database running under an elderly version of Suse still and we use Smoothwall as a firewall, email gateway and VPN controller which connects 3 sites all running Smoothwall..
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Post by Tim on May 13, 2023 18:32:54 GMT
It's even more impressive when you realise it's doing real-time content inspection of SSL encrypted website content, which represents nearly all websites with https secure comms. That is impressive Martin - and just looking through that screenshot . . . 437.0G of logs!!! Crikey bikey that's a lot of text. I had heard of Smoothwall before, but didn't know what it did. From what I know Linux is in almost everything under something that is visible Rock solid Absolutely Mike, I think if you just took Amazon Web Services and Android alone that would likely be more than anything else that's based on Linux, but as a desktop operating system it's only about 2% with Windows around 75% and macOS about 15 or so. So it's definitely not big in the home on personal computers. But as I'm part of the 5% of households who don't own a television, it seems about right for me to be joining the 2% of Linux users
Windows however has recently taken a bit of a nose dive in popularity - hard to know why just looking at a graph, but it's still way out in front despite that.
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Post by MartinT on May 13, 2023 18:57:44 GMT
If I were to switch to Linux, it would most likely be Ubuntu but I would need MS Office for the thousands of documents I've created over the years, and not an Office compatible like Libre. I might end up just using the Web version of Office, which is tolerable under a decent browser.
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Post by Slinger on May 13, 2023 19:02:19 GMT
I've mentioned before, I had a job where I used to hand code UNIX/SQL to suck (sales) data out of a bespoke database on a SCO Unix box as comma delimited text files, and then shove them into Visual FoxPro applications I'd built. Maybe that's why I never bothered building a Linux box "for fun".  |
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Post by Tim on May 13, 2023 20:35:23 GMT
If I were to switch to Linux, it would most likely be Ubuntu . . . Well if you ever do, I'd recommend trying a few out before deciding as it seems to be falling out of favour of late and doesn't perform as fast as it used to due to Snap packages. That's very easy to test out yourself as it is noticeable . . . but it is very slick visually. If it weren't for them adopting Snap and the recent question marks about privacy it would have been very high up my shopping list, as I used it a fair bit about 10 years ago and really liked it. Still do, but not as much as LMDE or Debian, which are fully community based and open source unlike Ubuntu and Snap. There's plenty of choice out there though Martin, too much really!
JRiver on Debian still hasn't fallen over once, that just keeps on going 24/7 unless I shut it down, so my music server is definitely staying on Debian. I have tried to break Debian but so far nothing has phased it . . . I can almost hear it scoffing at me saying 'is that all you've got?'
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Post by MartinT on May 14, 2023 20:07:58 GMT
Not unbiased, but I guess it gives people an idea of what they're in for.
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Post by Tim on May 15, 2023 6:51:58 GMT
Pretty much agree . . . if gaming is a priority Pop!_OS is known for good support, so understand why he picked it.
I also very much agree that dual booting on the same machine, especially older ones, isn't a good idea. Even dual booting onto separate hard drives gave me problems with ethernet - going from Windows to Linux could break my wired connection, which is weird. Easily solved by a reboot, but annoying enough to put me off dual booting. Going the other way (Linux to Windows) was never a problem. Windows updates even on separate hard drives are known to break the Linux boot loader, so it's hard to boot back into Linux without fixing it, which for an inexperienced user isn't simple.
Shame he didn't really try the other two out as I think it would have been more balanced and I'd wager he wouldn't have had any issues at all with Ubuntu or Mint. I haven't had any of the problems he experienced, but I'm using modern desktop hardware rather than an old laptop, but even so he should have tried Ubuntu and Mint.
He didn't however mention the reasons why many people switch to Linux and that's privacy and security. Windows is the most attacked OS out there, which is understandable as it's the most widely used - but I'm no longer prepared to compromise on that. The performance hit on Windows is huge compared to Linux as well, even on fast hardware Windows can't keep up with Linux.
For me privacy, security, forced updates and the sheer bloat in a Windows install are enough reasons to change, but going in 100% isn't totally pain free, especially if you like gaming and GIMP isn't enough for you compared to Photoshop.
Linux has changed a lot over the last 8 - 10 years, it wasn't really a viable alternative to Windows, but it definitely is now. It's not for everyone though as installing a new operating system, even a reinstall of Windows, is something I'd say the majority of personal computer users have never done. My best mate, despite me walking him through it twice now, can't cope with it and he's a very intelligent guy. So when his system slows down or gets bloated, he just goes out and buys a new laptop!
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Post by Tim on May 16, 2023 10:12:49 GMT
Just wanted to add a few comments about the video Martin posted, which I feel are important if anyone was considering trying out a Linux operating system.
Firstly I'm a hobbyist and I really enjoy rolling up my sleeves, pulling computers apart and trying different things out. If that's not you then be mindful there will be some learning to do and many things you take for granted in either Windows or a Mac aren't always the same in Linux.
Which brings me onto possibly the most important thing for a new user wishing to try Linux out and thats help is limited. Yes you can normally find the answer to a problem, but it might not be as simple as you're used to and involve some digging. I would say most of the time I've gone to Google looking for an answer to a problem the answers by operating system are normally in this order, Ubuntu, Linux Mint then Debian . . . so that might be worth consideration? If you step outside those three the available knowledge and help is going to be a lot less.
Definitely don't try running Linux on your normal computer, if you have an old laptop or similar that's a great way to approach it . . . and slowly alongside your normal machine. That's what I've been doing for a few weeks now and I still haven't fully moved over, but I'm trying out a lot of different hardware to see which works best for me and I'm also not in any hurry.
I think you have to look at Linux differently, it's not a product, it's a community, which is what open source software is all about . . . it isn't just about it being free (which it is) but it's about freedom and that's a reference to Debian's mission statement.
I think anyone who uses a modern computer can learn a Linux OS if they want to, but you have to want to.
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Post by MartinT on May 16, 2023 11:17:54 GMT
I have my old Gigabyte i7 BRIX mini PC doing nothing, so I'm going to build a Linux beast just for fun. The last time I did it was on an old Toshiba laptop, and that's had the calling from the grim reaper by now.
I'm mulling over the distro. I've never tried Pop! OS and it looks quite interesting. There's always Ubuntu, too. Any others to look at?
I do nearly everything using browser, Office and Photoshop. I can get by with Office in Chrome (but not a lesser browser). GIMP is bloody horrible but I'll find an alternative image editor.
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Post by Tim on May 16, 2023 13:52:48 GMT
I find it a lot of fun, time consuming, but very interesting nonetheless. A BRIX should be perfect, I have an open bench-table like below, which is ideal for swapping out hardware . . . . I've got NVMe drives with different distros/desktop environments all over the shop! I haven't really tried Pop myself other than loading it up, having a quick look around before deciding I'd tried enough by then. It's often not just which distro, but which desktop . . Gnome, Cinnamon, Mate, Xfce, Lxde, Lxqt . . . and so forth. It was getting a bit much so I thought time to stop and get to grips with just one. Another popular one visually and for gamers is Zorin OS, not tried that though.
Be interested to see what you think of Pop if you try it, as I probably only poked around for less than an hour.
One thing I will say, it's really rekindled my interest, which was slowly being sapped away by Microsoft's level of control . . so it's nice to feel that my computer is mine again . . . well, until I connect it to the internet  |
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Post by MartinT on May 16, 2023 16:19:09 GMT
I had completely forgotten. I also have Linuxfx installed on one of my old Dell tablets. It's a decent stab at a Windows 11 emulator.  |
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Post by Slinger on May 16, 2023 16:25:43 GMT
I find it a lot of fun, time consuming, but very interesting nonetheless. A BRIX should be perfect, I have an open bench-table like below, which is ideal for swapping out hardware . . . . I've got NVMe drives with different distros/desktop environments all over the shop! I haven't really tried Pop myself other than loading it up, having a quick look around before deciding I'd tried enough by then. It's often not just which distro, but which desktop . . Gnome, Cinnamon, Mate, Xfce, Lxde, Lxqt . . . and so forth. It was getting a bit much so I thought time to stop and get to grips with just one. Another popular one visually and for gamers is Zorin OS, not tried that though.
Be interested to see what you think of Pop if you try it, as I probably only poked around for less than an hour.
One thing I will say, it's really rekindled my interest, which was slowly being sapped away by Microsoft's level of control . . so it's nice to feel that my computer is mine again . . . well, until I connect it to the internet Is that a heat sink, or a block of flats? |
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Post by MartinT on May 16, 2023 16:31:46 GMT
Hong Kong, judging by the density of the 'balconies'.
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Post by Tim on May 16, 2023 17:22:08 GMT
I had completely forgotten. I also have Linuxfx installed on one of my old Dell tablets. It's a decent stab at a Windows 11 emulator. Haha, don't take this the wrong way, but the last thing I want in Linux is something trying to emulate Windows 11 That cooler is pretty much the same as mine Slinger, I use a Noctua NH-U12A. I have been toying with the idea of a water cooler on my bench table for a bit of fun. They have off board mounting hardware for it;  Wouldn't look like Hong Kong anymore though . . . tempted to try out an Artic Liquid Freezer II 360. |
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