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Post by brettj on Dec 5, 2022 22:55:57 GMT
My system has been cobbled together on the cheap. Only one component has been bought new.
Price does not mean I will like the sound.
My cousin has a nice system. His CD player is more expensive than my switch/streamer/Dac/DDC/clock/LPS cost. When I listened, yes it was nice. But was missing something. I preferred my system.
I listened to a very expensive system last month. Speakers retail for approx £300,000 here. Amps retail for £35,000. Again, it was very nice. But wasn't the nirvana I expected.
A learning for me. I already know audio beauty is in the ear of the beholder.
What have I ever wanted from my system? To get to a stage that if my demise is imminent, I'm satisfied with my system.
That happened a few years ago, with the SEG, ATC, Macbook Pro and Halide Bridge.
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Post by nicholas on Dec 5, 2022 23:19:28 GMT
I already know audio beauty is in the ear of the beholder. There may well be no greater truth that the system with which you are content is perfect for you. Just exercise caution in the event that you might someday succumb to the notion that "better" is the enemy of "good"... that is the first step toward damnation!
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Post by MartinT on Dec 6, 2022 6:03:07 GMT
I have heard several six-figure systems in my time and none of them were music makers, just expensive hi-fi. Some were actually poor.
Don't look at price as a criteria. When your system reaches the performance level you've targeted, stop! Tinkering is fun, building anxiety is not.
As for my demise, it won't matter to me as I'll be gone. It won't matter to anyone else either, as it'll be broken up and sold off.
Build your system for yourself, for your own pleasure.
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Post by ant on Dec 6, 2022 6:49:56 GMT
It helps to know what you actually want from it. It took me years and years to find something i was entirely happy with and happened by accident. I took the f5 power amp in as part ex for a tt i built for someone and a light bulb went off. The b1 was sought out as it seemed a good idea, and it was. The speakers were built because of the demand for high efficiency by the f5 as it has bugger all gain. So the system i have was built around the amp. But i might have still been stumbling around in the dark without by chance ending up with the f5. It is an extremely transparent amp combo, more like a measurement instrument rather than a musical instrument if that makes sense but it happens to be exactly what i didnt know i wanted until i heard it and went 'there it is, thats the sound in my head'
It isnt for everyone, some dont like the f5 so everyones mileage varies
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Post by ajski2fly on Dec 6, 2022 8:50:49 GMT
Yes, expensive doesn’t necessarily mean good SQ or musicality, as I have found out at least twice.
I had a Michell Gyrodec from new with an SME IV arm, nothing wrong with the arm, but the TT was pants, metal plinth resonated like a bell, masses of vibration feed back from feet to deck to arm, suspension set up was a poor design - wow/flutter inducing. I spent many months upgrading suspension, changing feet, isolating arm, Orbe new high mass platter, it got better but was still not great. Ignoring the arm the TT cost me £4K with all the upgrades, a total waste of money and time. Sorry to Michell owners out there, they may look good, but IMO they are not great for SQ! I asked advise from those who knew better than me and initially moved to a used Voyd 0.5 3 motor TT for £1.4K, a big improvement, lovely smooth sound with great detail, but a little lacking in deep bass. Finally I moved to an ex-demo Project Signature 10 for an excellent price, superb VFM, produces masses of detail and controlled bass, a friend who has an SME 30/2 with SME V arm thinks it is nearly as good. (We both use the same cartridge)
I had what was reported as great amp, an Allnic 300B valve amp costing over £6k, but over time I reluctantly realised it had some not so good low end traits, I did the usual valve upgrades/swapping and even though I tried several speakers with it I was a disappointment.
The amp went and I purchased a used Krell class A SS for less than half the cost, and have never looked back, my system now produces IMHO a pleasant realistic musical enjoyable sound.
I realise my system as it stands now is not necessarily cheap, but then it is not in the realms of silly high end prices either, but for me it does sound great.😊
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orange55
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Post by orange55 on Dec 6, 2022 9:16:53 GMT
I would agree with ant here, knowing the sound you like was key thing for me. Mine is being in the control room at the recording studio or being in the venue for live events. I was lucky enough to spend over a decade in studio's so was very familiar with the sound I wanted at home. (Although during that decade I listened to very little music at home compared to know) The passion of the music is what you get in those environments and the controlled space, ie: the rooms don't have any of the room issues you get in normal houses. Then there is the detail you get and that electric 'you are there feel'. That is a very different sound to the expensive hi-fi sound playing smooth jazz. I like a system to entertain and draw me into the music, not just present it efficiently in front of me. One final thought for brettj is that distortion in a system can actually make it sound more attractive to us. By that I do not mean the level of distortion you would notice, but more noise in the system and as you remove that noise through better components, cables, supports... It can make the music sound less real in comparison, but over time people thrive for the lack of distortion as part of the musical journey to nirvana. However, making the jump in one big go can be too much.
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Post by ant on Dec 6, 2022 9:37:05 GMT
Chucking money at it rarely works. If there is an aspect that isnt working people need to identify what it is that isnt working rather than just arbitrarily waving the chequebook. From my point of view, building things myself was very instructive, particularly turntables because i could make changes and track the effect of changes to the designs. What i felt was better and what was worse in an iterative process. A stab in the dark purchase has no guarantee of sounding better. The actual monetary cost of my system is not much, the most expensive purchase thats in there was a 350 quid at33sa cart i bought from a friend that was barely used. And is still barely used because its on the jbe which is not used very often.
But there is much more than monetary cost to factor in in my case because there are 5 years development invested in the lenco turntable and 5 years invested in the arm design. The fact that other people who have heard them want to buy them off me suggests that they are fairly good. I have built quite a few lencos for people, 20 plus over the last couple of years so they must be doing something right.
I have heard six figure systems that i thought had multiple issues, and systems that were a couple of hundred quid that i really enjoyed. I still maintain that it is because those who put them together either did or didnt know what they were shooting for.
That isnt to say that a really expensive system is a waste of money, not at all, its that money is not a defining factor, it is the correct purchases for the individual that are the defining factor
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Post by HD Music & Test on Dec 6, 2022 9:43:16 GMT
All I'm going to say here is second order harmonics, they can delivery a far more leasing sound than many big ticket systems
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Post by MikeMusic on Dec 6, 2022 9:43:19 GMT
I used Tony's, HD Music & Test ears and advice Think the retail value of my system went down as I upgraded the sound. Very nice. The current system is all 2nd user and outperforms systems many times the retail
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Post by julesd68 on Dec 6, 2022 11:24:06 GMT
You only have to attend a few hifi shows to appreciate that expensive is rarely compelling ...
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Post by MartinT on Dec 6, 2022 13:00:53 GMT
At shows:
Focal Grande Utopia speakers sounded dire with multiple Naim amplifiers driving them. Easily a six-figure system.
Wilson Benesch Bishop speakers sounded equally dire with Chord Electronics amps running them. Ditto cost.
Magico S5 speakers with Constellation amps also sounded terrible the last time I heard them.
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palace
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Post by palace on Dec 6, 2022 13:25:32 GMT
All I'm going to say here is second order harmonics, they can delivery a far more leasing sound than many big ticket systems I suggest second order harmonics are why I love valves I think only valves make sense & nurture treble, at around 100wpc into a pair of OTA Quad 57's with Batpure tweeters my second user valve amp will never be overdriven & distort unpleasantly the OTA Quads would long be toast. Mark Manwaring White at Ming Da UK has worked on my S/H forum bought MC7R pre it bears little resemblance to the un-modified one he also upgraded the output caps & resistors in the Rogue Atlas power amp. Mark the Ming also has done work on my bought new Croft phono stage that I silver wired. The speakers were also off Fleabay then serviced by OTA so not an expensive outlay. All my annealed solid silver phono leads & TNT UBYTE cross connected co ax speaker cable is home made. Even my Hydraulic Reference TT converted to DC by me was a birthday gift in 1972 the Hadcock arm an insurance claim, the cartridge a Cartridgeman Musicmaster that I was an unknowing Guinea pig for, I subsequently was told it cost me less than the Sapphire cantilever/stylus had cost Len Gregory. In the last 18 months I have added a new pension friendly Caiman SEG 50 + mods & Dorado 3 + MCRU LPSU most outlay in 10 years Over the years I may have spent a good few quid on things like a full Quadraphonic SQ/QS & CD4 system, however I now have my just right system with relatively minimal financial investment compared to others, just lots of research/thought + time & effort, sharing my intellectual property the resulting reciprocity has been to my benefit ie after spending over an hour explaining why a shop manager was having trouble with the amps in his Vauxhall Astra boot (lack of airflow) got my Aiwa S 950 cassette deck with discount plus managers discount ie less than half price.
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Post by MikeMusic on Dec 6, 2022 16:35:48 GMT
The classic for me as mentioned before was going to a local dealer having an Absolute Sounds demo day System on demo estimated around £250k
Underwhelmed Playing same tracks later on my then Isis CD, Belles Pre and Monos, TAD E1 speakers, all second hand A few steps up in sound for a small fraction of the demo set up
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Post by MartinT on Dec 6, 2022 18:43:58 GMT
It's much more about careful selection and how to build the system with attention to detail rather than spending loads on overpriced bling brands and paying no attention to setup.
I'll bet I could coax more out of some of those monstrously priced systems I've heard, judging by the way they're thrown together for shows - not to mention the generally dreadful sounding hotel rooms, not their fault of course. Mind you, some sound treatment would go a long way.
I was asked recently whether I would upgrade everything if I won the lottery. Probably not, I would take my existing system and put it in a better room before even thinking about giving any of it up.
On the subject of second order harmonic distortion or achieving a "vinyl-like" sound, no thanks to either. I want to hear it as recorded to the best of my system's ability.
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Post by HD Music & Test on Dec 6, 2022 19:59:42 GMT
I have a recent friend who lives near by, he went through the enevitable devorice, he managed to keep ther house a couple sticks of furniture plus his audio system. The 'classic' flat earth entry staring point from a couple of decades ago's LP12 <> Nait 2 & Kan's all strung together with Naca 4 and some odd din terminated star quad stuff. Anyway, since that time I have rebuilt the deck. amps & speakers, it now resides in his converted garage and on a Saturday afternoon we can spins some music, play some pool and watch the Rugby, chill out and relax. No its the not the last work in detail or bass, but it boogies and entertains you. Over the years I have listened to a great many six and a few seven figure systems, mightily impressive some are to, however here is the key phrase, almost zero are musically captivating and engaging. Staggering detail retrieval beyond what you really thing is on the recording, bass that is a motorhead fans wet dream, and delicate texture wide open treble that coral lovers would juice their silkies over. But when the wow factor subsides all you are left with is an audiophiles one or two trick pony However, the vast majority of the WBF inhabitants are 'keeping up with the Jones' willy waves, real music reproduction is just a irrelevant its the equipment, er sorry the badge which get their juices following NOT the music. There are always exceptions to the rule and some very special systems exist around 30 thousand mark, yes that is still a lot of coinage to most people, but do remember these chaps have acquired this over a couple of decades or so. If you do the maths that 240 months, that’s £125 a month. Also when you are younger and single your ability to purchase items (whatever they are) are far less limited. In the last few years, I have seen and listened to some very decent virtually all DIY systems including the speakers which would seriously embarrass a lot of low six figure ticket system with ease. Personally, I am fortunate to be able to design and build my own audio systems (speakers NO, no my area of expertise) however my personal systems consist of only really the speakers which are purchased, The infostructure, and amplifiers are all my own design as the signal transfer devices/power treatments/reference voltage cleaning systems etc. The speaker + rack isolation devices are made very locally to me in Amersham and our OE isolation is made very close to Faslane near Glasgow. The dac's I personally use are 20 years plus of age with a spot of restructuring. Although I have recently upgraded the streamer which I haven't touched (yet) Life is complex enough without to much dickingabout with HQ player and its 4 billion possible setting. Last thought for the evening ROOM <> SPEAKER interface, so much performance is lost in this fundamental way, rather than address the issue people tend to place a sticking plaster on the fact the room is the wrong shape/size of just poxy open plan two rooms knocked togther. This year along I could genuielly count at 2 dozens callers who rather than look at extending the room or having a small extension to the storeroom (aka garage) could save themselves so much hassle/stress and self-belief issues because it was easier to 'push the trigger' on a piece of 'must have' equipment, only to push them back on the merry go round of audiofool OCD mania. Think Room <> Speaker <>amplifier impedance = 85% there, flavour with front end of your choice. Life is for living, exploring new things, places, experiences, locations, different cultures, cuisines, sports, hobbies, people and yes MUSIC. Not sat in front of a screen trying to work out whether you can stretch to have that new cable & isolation table this month. It just goes back to how big is my fire or how long is the woman’s hair. Humans so advanced, complicated, ingenious yet so recessed at the same time.
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Post by John on Dec 6, 2022 23:35:57 GMT
I think my hearing and what I listen for has developed over the years, much like my musical taste it is not static but slowly involving. I know what I like when I hear it but getting there is another story. I think some of this is influenced by my journey with open baffles, some by my love of live music and some by playing the guitar. I have learnt that our ears adapt to what we are hearing and to some degree compensates for that. This makes judging other equipment to some degree based on our own preferences difficult as we are looking for what is familiar to us. Sometimes my ego likes to think it has a good system, but what counts is how much we enjoy listening to our systems and not how great it is compared to anyone else.
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Post by julesd68 on Dec 7, 2022 9:30:05 GMT
LP12 <> Nait 2 & Kan's all strung together with Naca 4 and some odd din terminated star quad stuff. You must be a miracle worker Tony, Nait 2 and Käns is normally reserved for noise torture as a CIA interrogation method. Most punters give in after seconds, not minutes...
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Post by MartinT on Dec 7, 2022 9:42:34 GMT
but what counts is how much we enjoy listening to our systems and not how great it is compared to anyone else. Exactly that. My enjoyment of my system is at an all-time high and that's the only thing that matters to me.
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Post by HD Music & Test on Dec 7, 2022 11:10:30 GMT
LP12 <> Nait 2 & Kan's all strung together with Naca 4 and some odd din terminated star quad stuff. You must be a miracle worker Tony, Nait 2 and Käns is normally reserved for noise torture as a CIA interrogation method. Most punters give in after seconds, not minutes...
Joolz, lets just say it now makes a good stab at playing real music, the casework is still the same at least
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Post by julesd68 on Dec 7, 2022 12:05:19 GMT
Lol you are an audio magician Tony!
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