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Post by MartinT on Jul 7, 2022 7:12:31 GMT
I'm seeing a wild variety of ideas on how much a streaming front end should cost, from those who think a minimal spend is sufficient to those who realise it's as complex and expensive as CD or LP replay if you want serious results. Full discosure - I'm in the latter camp.
What Do You Need
In essence, you need a streamer (also called a network bridge) and a DAC. These could be sold as a single-box solution. You also need an internet connection and a subscription to one or more music streaming services such as Qobuz, Tidal, Spotify, YouTube Music, Amazon, Apple etc.
At the basic level, you could build a Pi-based streamer using one of the many software builds out there, plus an inexpensive USB DAC. You could also use a high end streamer and a high end DAC or a sophisticated all-in-one component.
You will also need a method of control such as a phone, tablet or laptop.
How Will it Sound?
The basic Pi-based system with an inexpensive DAC will give you a reasonable taste of musical reproduction. It will sound like a mass-market CD player or turntable, with a decent helping of music but little deep insight.
A middling system with, say, a Pro-Ject Streambox and decent quality DAC should match the sound of a good quality CD player.
A high end hi-res system will easily surpass CD or LP replay and take you extraordinarily close to the master tape.
How Much Will it Cost?
A basic Pi plus a DAC can cost as little as £200 if you're prepared to buy unbranded Chinese.
Further up the food chain, a carefully built Pi- or Asus-based single board computer with a subscription to Volumio, plus one of the many £300-500 DACs out there, will be quite satisfying to listen to for long periods of time. Expect to invest at least £1000.
A single-box solution like the Volumio Primo or PecanPi will also give you great results without the need for construction or complex cables and power supplies.
If you want replay up to hi-end standards, you are looking at a top quality streamer plus high performance DAC or one of the high end solutions like a Lumin Network Player. You will be paying attention to good racking, supports, power, cables, grounding and noise suppression. Expect to invest in the neighbourhood of £8000 plus depending on what you have already.
Why Do It?
The catalogue of the major streaming services far exceeds your ability to build a collection over your lifetime. Secondly is the convenience. Control in your lap, the ability to chase rabbits down holes easily, make use of recommendations based on your previous selections, build your own playlists etc. Thirdly, in my opinion, the best sound quality you can achieve at home.
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Post by MikeMusic on Jul 7, 2022 8:18:27 GMT
Does my current W10 laptop into Bluetooth adaptor count as a streamer ?
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Post by MartinT on Jul 7, 2022 8:23:45 GMT
Does my current W10 laptop into Bluetooth adaptor count as a streamer ? Not a dedicated one, no. A laptop is no machine for the delicate processing of streaming musical data. |
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Post by John on Jul 7, 2022 8:24:10 GMT
It will not get you anywhere close to where Martin is at
But a lot of work to get to those standards
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Post by MikeMusic on Jul 7, 2022 8:25:18 GMT
I know there are much better solutions
Wondered if it counts as a streamer
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Post by John on Jul 7, 2022 8:37:06 GMT
Yes it counts as a method to stream music
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Post by ajski2fly on Jul 7, 2022 14:47:51 GMT
How Will it Sound?The basic Pi-based system with an inexpensive DAC will give you a reasonable taste of musical reproduction. It will sound like a mass-market CD player or turntable, with a decent helping of music but little deep insight. A middling system with, say, a Pro-Ject Streambox and decent quality DAC should match the sound of a good quality CD player. A high end hi-res system will easily surpass CD or LP replay and take you extraordinarily close to the master tape. How Much Will it Cost?A basic Pi plus a DAC can cost as little as £200 if you're prepared to buy unbranded Chinese. Further up the food chain, a carefully built Pi- or Asus-based single board computer with a subscription to Volumio, plus one of the many £300-500 DACs out there, will be quite satisfying to listen to for long periods of time. Expect to invest at least £1000. A single-box solution like the Volumio Primo or PecanPi will also give you great results without the need for construction or complex cables and power supplies. If you want replay up to hi-end standards, you are looking at a top quality streamer plus high performance DAC or one of the high end solutions like a Lumin Network Player. You will be paying attention to good racking, supports, power, cables and noise suppression. Expect to invest in the neighbourhood of £8000 plus depending on what you have already. I seem to recall that Pro-Ject Audio Systems is a partner of Volumio, after a search I found this "Inside the unit, a powerful Raspberry Pi computer no larger than a credit card will let you manage all these remote playback options. This is done using the Linux-based control software baked inside, which runs on top of a version of the Volumio operating system to give you command central-style oversight of your music for a variety of playback options." see www.audioadvice.com/pro-ject-stream-box-s2-ultra. So considering that the Project Strean S2 retails for around £630 and you could buy a RPI4 for about £125 on amazon and a HIFIBERRY DIGI2 PRO 2.2(It uses the I2S sound port that connects directly to the CPU) for about £40, add a box and linear PSU for about another £100 and I would have thought you would have a solution that is at least as good and less than half the price. I know the Pro-Ject offering is in a nice box and is a bespoke design, but is it actually better than a RPI4 and very good Spdif output board that effectively does the same thing, and does it actually sound better, I am not sure. There are other example of similar comparisons in the streaming world. This is why I have been and still remain sceptical on investing large amounts on Streamers, I have listened 'more expensive, and considered better' equipment touted by dealers and HiFi reviews and have found to very hard to actually say it sounded better. Also I still have issue with the general reliability and quality of streamed music, it can be a bit of unknown quantity IHMO. So in answer to the threads title I am not convinced that it is wise or that you need to spend large amounts on digital streaming to get a good SQ from it. Perhaps I should visit you sometime Martin and have a listen to your set up, maybe that would change my mind. |
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Post by MikeMusic on Jul 7, 2022 14:49:32 GMT
Yes it counts as a method to stream music A nice cheap entry point ! |
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Post by petea on Jul 7, 2022 14:53:29 GMT
And if you want to just use streaming to identify CDs to buy it's a perfectly valid option.
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Post by MikeMusic on Jul 7, 2022 14:57:10 GMT
It is perfect for me at the moment.
Upgrading will come sooner or later
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Post by Slinger on Jul 7, 2022 15:29:08 GMT
... So considering that the Project Strean S2 retails for around £630 and you could buy a RPI4 for about £125 on amazon and a HIFIBERRY DIGI2 PRO 2.2(It uses the I2S sound port that connects directly to the CPU) for about £40, add a box and linear PSU for about another £100 and I would have thought you would have a solution that is at least as good and less than half the price... That pretty much describes what I'm running. The other advantage is that the Volumio code is " hackable" so I can disable things like the video subsystem - as I'm not currently running it with a screen - and as I'm using the optical port of the Digi2 Pro I can also disable the USB side of things on the Pi4 board, apart from the power-in, obviously. The Digi Pro 2 cost me £41.50, the Pi4 4Mb was £54.00, and the sturdy, purpose-built metal case was another £22.00 all from the Pi Hut last year. So, in total, £117.50. Even if you add the eighty-quid or so I paid for my optical interconnect, it still works out as a pretty inexpensive way of doing things. |
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Post by MartinT on Jul 7, 2022 15:30:54 GMT
This is why I have been and still remain sceptical on investing large amounts on Streamers, I have listened 'more expensive, and considered better' equipment touted by dealers and HiFi reviews and have found to very hard to actually say it sounded better. Also I still have issue with the general reliability and quality of streamed music, it can be a bit of unknown quantity IHMO. Having heard the Pro-Ject streamer when Tom (Pinch) brought it over, it's a step up from a basic Pi build. I think the USB interface is definitely tweaked and not the standard (rubbish) Pi interface. Two things: the ultraRendu made absolute mincemeat of an Asus based streamer, which itself comfortably outperformed a good Pi-based streamer with Allo Kali board. The Signature Rendu SE sees off the ultraRendu equally comfortably. So you're several significant steps up the ladder from any standard streamer. The level mine performs at is several above SACD. It's diminishing returns at this level, just as it is with CD or LP. The only difference is you can get closer to the master tape when you stream pure unadulterated hi-res from Qobuz (not the MQA crap that is Tidal). Secondly, what reliability issues? My kit works reliably all the time. I walk in, turn the power amp on, sit with the tablet and select music. All inside 30s. I have had two occasions when the local 4G mast was down in the three years I've been doing this. We all get power cuts more often. |
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Post by John on Jul 7, 2022 18:51:34 GMT
I remember visiting Martin and thinking if I want to get digital to where I wanted it was going to cost a lot more money. I would need to address the whole audio chain. I left with a sighhh. knowing it was just getting more complex and costly. At that stage I just gave up pushing the digital end as just did not see where it would end.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 7, 2022 19:35:05 GMT
I remember visiting Martin and thinking if I want to get digital to where I wanted it was going to cost a lot more money. I would need to address the whole audio chain. I left with a sighhh. knowing it was just getting more complex and costly. At that stage I just gave up pushing the digital end as just did not see where it would end. I'm sorry to hear that, John. I know you want to keep it simple and watch the costs. I do think my system is simpler now and I have drastically reduced the rat's nest. It looks like this which I hope you'll agree is tidier. The downside is it has cost me more, but I look at the growing pile of things I have to sell and I know I've taken the right direction. I'm very, very close to end game now so it's down to tiny tinkering with SFPs and fibre optics. I could only have got here via the path I have taken. I have learned so much along the way. Optimising a digital streaming system is not easy and the learning is a required step. The system already makes me very happy; if the U18 comes back sounding better, it's just the icing.  I want to use this thread to help answer any questions others may have in order to get streaming sounding as good as it does for me. |
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Post by MartinT on Jul 7, 2022 19:41:57 GMT
Some hints for optimising streaming at all levels:
- Good quality power is vital. Whether it's clean mains power or good power supplies, don't skimp and keep those SMPS (Switched Mode Power Supplies) well away from your system.
- Think about racks, isolation and supports. Try to minimise vibration and remember that digital components are subject to microphonics.
- Put weights on equipment but only after you have them on isolating and damping footers.
- Grounding boxes need not be expensive but they are a vital part of noise reduction in the digital chain.
- A good external clock can transform the sound of your system.
- Digital noise does not manifest as noise like an analogue system. It manifests in a reduction of soundstage and fine detail.
- Go for isolation to really keep noise down. A 4G router, galvanic isolation and fibre optics are all different ways of achieving it. Win the top prize for using them all.
- Check streamers and DACs for firmware updates which can sometimes improve sound quality and sometimes improve reliability or add features.
- Think about everything in the chain from the router to the DAC. Everything matters so pay attention to it all.
- Not everything has to be expensive. You can improvise with sorbothane, snap chokes and Ghent cables, for instance.
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Post by John on Jul 7, 2022 20:45:40 GMT
The system has tidied up a lot
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Post by daytona600 on Jul 7, 2022 21:01:52 GMT
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Post by MartinT on Jul 8, 2022 5:00:47 GMT
high end models £30-£250k lampizator , Wadax , DCS etc I would have to be seriously convinced. I've never yet heard any dCS kit sound truly musically insightful. |
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Post by Pinch on Jul 8, 2022 20:46:14 GMT
This is why I have been and still remain sceptical on investing large amounts on Streamers, I have listened 'more expensive, and considered better' equipment touted by dealers and HiFi reviews and have found to very hard to actually say it sounded better. Also I still have issue with the general reliability and quality of streamed music, it can be a bit of unknown quantity IHMO. Having heard the Pro-Ject streamer when Tom (Pinch) brought it over, it's a step up from a basic Pi build. I think the USB interface is definitely tweaked and not the standard (rubbish) Pi interface. It was also a decent step up from the streamer I was using before, which was a custom built, extensively tuned, fanless PC, outputting via a sotm USB card with its own battery power supply. This was a lot more faff (and cost quite a bit more) than the Pro-Ject, which I'm still very happy with. |
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Post by julesd68 on Jul 8, 2022 21:06:56 GMT
I think what you need to spend on a streaming front end is entirely down to two things - the quality of the rest of your system (amp and speakers) and what your expectations are.
Personally I am very satisfied with the sound I get from a front end that's only around 1k. It's a very simple set up and I like it that way.
Spend what your ears tell you to.
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