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Post by julesd68 on Dec 20, 2021 21:14:56 GMT
Looking back at my old Tannoy 12" HPD's, of course they had some issues. Lack of extended frequency response at both ends, a bit vague and soft in the bass. But in addition to a pretty fine midrange, their strongest asset for me was the way they could portray a large orchestra with lots of scale, depth and seperation. Really very impressive with some well recorded vinyl!
Sometimes I think about what my next pair of speakers will be when we finally move house and I have more space at my disposal. So my question to you is what kind of more modern speaker design would give me that same scale, whilst giving me all the detail and rez I want with digital music.
I love my current Sonus Fabers and of course could simply buy some bigger ones but what issues are at play beyond driver size? I understand there are drawbacks to bigger drivers which may partly explain why they are not so common anymore. Is there another aspect to the design one needs to consider?
Thoughts please gentlemen.
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Post by John on Dec 21, 2021 6:31:46 GMT
I first would like to hear the Sonus Fabers in a larger room just to hear what they are truly capable off before trying anything else. I just think the Sonus works well with your gear and you not close to hearing their potential.
I prefer your Sonus to the Tanoys yes they could sound good with the right music but on the whole a bit under whelming with other styles of music. So I think you need speakers that do scale but are also nimble enough to do rock well. SO a case of finding the right balance that works for you. This is not a easy balance to achieve but I think in your case one you need to be aware off and not get wowed by just one strength.
I prefer speakers with higher sensitivity, than speakers that are hard to drive
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Post by MartinT on Dec 21, 2021 8:40:13 GMT
For scale, you really need floorstanders (with some very expensive exceptions). This is where you could look at the used market and get a bargain. For instance, the Usher Be-10 or B&W 801 often appear for sale used.
However, I agree with John that you probably have a way to go with the Sonus Fabers. I would look at Podiums or the pads that Jerry uses for supporting the speakers, and then turn your attention to grounding boxes for your digital components to tighten up the delivery, expand the soundstage and give you dynamics you're probably barely touching at the moment.
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Post by John on Dec 21, 2021 8:49:47 GMT
Just having space for your speakers will help a lot.
Agree about the podiums they helped Martins system to sing
When safe if ever I bring over some grounding boxes to try out but you not hear the full benefit until a few days and will not be leaving them 😃
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Post by julesd68 on Dec 21, 2021 10:52:25 GMT
Lol John.
Plenty of interesting ideas but I would still like to ascertain just how important driver size is to getting huge scale from speakers.
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Post by John on Dec 21, 2021 11:03:14 GMT
I used to have 15ninch duel concentric drivers and still have 4 x 15 inch bass drivers
Prefer the standmounts for treble and low mid bass grunt myself more nimble and still have plenty of scale
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Post by MartinT on Dec 21, 2021 11:13:20 GMT
Plenty of interesting ideas but I would still like to ascertain just how important driver size is to getting huge scale from speakers. Driver size and/or excursion is relevant. I've got 4 x 11" port loaded. |
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Post by ajski2fly on Dec 21, 2021 13:13:13 GMT
As I have found and Martin said if you want to get more presentation depth and oomph to it all then at least floor standers and possibly bigger boxes will be the order of the day. I used to have a pair of Wiloson Benesch Arc's that were great in detail, soundstage and clarity but just could not quite do it. I went through a couple of other speakers Impulse H2's and Tannoy Legacy Arden's, both performed very well but domestic harmony meant that I had to move to some more modern floor standers with a smaller footprint and less imposing. I now run a pair of Wilson Benesch Vectors, these produce wonderful detail, great soundstage and depth, maybe not quite the full monty in terms of scale with an orchestra in full chat but certainly a very good 9/10 in my opinion. To get better I think I would need to go one or two levels up but this would be out of my price bracket or acceptable to my wife. Wilson Benesch speakers will certainly give you " the detail and rez I want with digital music" but be warned they can be unforgiving, in simple terms a poor recording whether digital or analogue will sound just that you will get warts and all, and they will highlight any front end system inadequacies. I also used to own a pair of Vienna Acoustics Mozart Reference Grande SE's and they were superb with orchestral, and jazz, but still did a good job with rock. The next two up the range, the Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Baby Grand Symphony Edition(SE) and Beethoven Grand SE are even better. So depending on your budget these would be well worth a listen to. See hifiplus.com/articles/vienna-acoustics-beethoven-baby-grand-reference-loudspeakers/ Not that well known here in the UK, some of the best produced wooden speaker cabinets I have ever seen, made for them by a high end furniture manufacturer to their specifications. If you try out or go for Vienna Acoustics then ensure that you can place them properly in your room, I found they needed to be at least a metre from the rear wall to get the best from them. |
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Post by Slinger on Dec 21, 2021 15:40:43 GMT
Have you considered a sub, or two, or is space too much of a constraint?
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Post by julesd68 on Dec 21, 2021 19:35:43 GMT
In my current living space my Sonus Fabers are perfect and I won't be changing them - they aren't the smallest floorstanders and do more than adequate bass.
As I said at the moment just trying to work out for when we move whether 10/12/15" drivers are a prerequisite to do justice to a large orchestra.
Sometimes I read about speakers with smaller drivers having more 'agility' whatever that means but does that automatically compromise soundstage?
I suspect I will end up buying the biggest speakers my next home can accommodate (LOL) unless anyone can really convince me that smaller speakers can do what I need. I'm under no pressure to have small or slim speakers for the aesthetic, for which I am very thankful, so my instinct is to 'go large' unless new speaker tech says otherwise.
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Post by MartinT on Dec 21, 2021 20:01:04 GMT
When I auditioned the Usher Be-10, they did everything I was looking for in a speaker. So I ordered the Be-20. Why? I just knew I would end up with a listening room that would do them justice. Ordering that model blind was fine (and there were none in the country to listen to) as they just double-up on the bass drivers, with the same mid and tweeter in a larger cabinet.
My point is, go as large as the room you think you'll end up in. True sonic scale means big woofer surface area means large cabinets. There's no getting away from it.
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Post by John on Dec 21, 2021 20:18:12 GMT
I tend to agree a bit with Martin get something with good bass drivers and have a few of them. Martin has the second best system I heard for scale whilst keeping the sound quick and textured.
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Post by julesd68 on Dec 21, 2021 20:53:59 GMT
Only the second best - so who's the daddy then John?  Big Ushers are a possibility and maybe Wilsons but Wilsons aren't much to look at IMO. If I'm going to drop 5-10k on speakers, of course sonics come first, but ideally they would be nice to look at too ...
Sonus Faber don't seem to make speakers with big drivers, even their more expensive models from what I've seen. I would be interested to know why, whether it's a technical or aesthetic thing.
At some point I would be very interested to hear those new Alchris Audio AR-66 with dual 12" drivers. I lurve the retro Rosewood veneer.  |
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Post by julesd68 on Dec 21, 2021 21:00:49 GMT
See hifiplus.com/articles/vienna-acoustics-beethoven-baby-grand-reference-loudspeakers/ Not that well known here in the UK, some of the best produced wooden speaker cabinets I have ever seen, made for them by a high end furniture manufacturer to their specifications. If you try out or go for Vienna Acoustics then ensure that you can place them properly in your room, I found they needed to be at least a metre from the rear wall to get the best from them. I've come across Vienna Acoustics in the press but never heard a pair - yes the cabinets look very handsome indeed! |
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Post by ajski2fly on Dec 21, 2021 21:21:13 GMT
They sound as good as they look, and they make the drivers themselves. An extremely good speakers overlooked here! I nearly went back to them with a pair of Baby Beethovens but the WB Vectors popped up at the time at a silly price.
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Post by daytona600 on Dec 21, 2021 22:10:12 GMT
Big active monitors as used in Classical recording studios
But they will make your sonus fabers look like bookshelfs thet dwarf my other speakers
Scale , Dynamics aplenty have a very big set of Hedds with several kw
Also diptyque outstanding with classical have a set of DP160
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Post by julesd68 on Dec 22, 2021 0:57:56 GMT
Those look quite interesting.
Of course whatever speakers I get have to sound great with ALL the various genres of music I listen to, that's a given, I just find that orchestral scale is one of the most difficult aspects of musical reproduction to get right.
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Post by John on Dec 22, 2021 8:29:33 GMT
I love to hear the new PS Audio speaker Certainly worth adding to audition speakers
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Post by MartinT on Dec 22, 2021 11:22:19 GMT
Don't discount Wilson Audio on the used market. Still scary expensive and ugly, they give an authoritative performance top to bottom.
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Post by ajski2fly on Dec 22, 2021 11:42:20 GMT
Don't discount Wilson Audio on the used market. Still scary expensive and ugly, they give an authoritative performance top to bottom. Yes quite agree, they would be on my list too if I had the room to accommodate them and the cash. |
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