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Post by ajski2fly on Nov 28, 2021 13:06:59 GMT
So having changed my phono stage to get an improvement in Vinyl rendition I decided it was time to revisit the interconnects I was using between the phono stage (Audiovalve Sunilda) and the pre-amp(Audiolab 8300CDQ), I am quite amazed at the SQ of the Audiolab as a piece of Kit a true gem. The Sunilda is a titan of a phono stage and another hidden gem IMO, not cheap but I managed to pick up a good and well cared for previously used one recently. The Sunilda has opened up everything to a new level, and the result is making me want to re-visit my LPs. Back to the interconnects, initially I had popped in a trusty pair of Ecosse NuDiva's between the two units and it has sounded very good for the past couple of weeks, the NuDiva's are a very highly respected interconnect, not extremely costly but considered VGFM that are neutral in most systems. The other possibly suitable RCA's that I own are a pair of Chord Chameleon Vee 3's, and again another very well respected pair of interconnects and at a similar price level as the NuDiva's. The Chameleon Vee 3's have resided in a drawer now for about 2 years, I had basically given up on them when I used them between a LFD phono stage and a couple of other amps. All I seemed to get was slightly muddled soundstage and at times they picked up interference, or so I thought. I ended up using the Eccose NuDiva's or a pair of Eccose Reference instead which improved matters somewhat. So I was not really expecting much from the Chameleon Vee 3's in my current set up. How wrong could I be? As I have indicated before I was expecting to be dissappointed with the Chameleon Vee 3’s based on previous experience, but not this time, far from it. They seem to work very well between the Sunilda and the Audiolab, very interesting! On my initial listen it sounded to me that the bass was better presented, I let side 1 of Ravi Shankar - "Portrait of Genius" play through and what became clear is that they are giving a slightly warmer mid presentation over the NuDiva’s, not in an umpleasant way far from it, possibly more natural and relaxed to listen too. 🤔 This was further confirmed with some Eva Cassidy, and St Germain. So what is going on here? How can a simple cable not work in one system and yet be good in another? Are we all thinking about cables in too simple a way, is it that there is a synergy and matching issue to be considered when connecting up two pieces of equipment? My experience above seems to suggest that it could be quite easy to dismiss a piece of equipment as not being any good when actually if you changed the cable(s) to it then the SQ could improve quite a bit, this could lead(pun intended) to making some very bad decisions in selecting gear!  I have always accepted that cables can and do make a difference to how a system sounds, but I did not expect a cable to not work in one set up and be pretty good in another. What are your thoughts and experiences in this? |
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Post by MartinT on Nov 28, 2021 13:13:59 GMT
A cable is a transmission line and potentially a filter. It depends on where it's used, what it's connected to both ends, location, temperature and the environmental EMI/RFI. There are too many variables to make general claims about cables.
I will just say that my observation is that cables that filter out RFI generally sound better.
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Post by MikeMusic on Nov 28, 2021 13:59:20 GMT
The rest of the system may be affecting the sound.
Good cable revealing weaknesses and sounding wrong ?
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Post by ajski2fly on Nov 28, 2021 14:09:28 GMT
The rest of the system may be affecting the sound. Good cable revealing weaknesses and sounding wrong ? Yes I think you have may have hit the nail on the head there Mike. Even though the LFD gave a good rendition I always felt it was overtly influenced by placement in relation to other gear, and suspected was picky about cables used with it. So now as you say a reasonably good cable that did not work with it, Chord Cameleom, now performs well in my existing set up. I certainly hope that is the case or the scenario of cables causing mismatching issues with equipment and causing poor results is not one I would like to have to consider. |
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Post by MikeMusic on Nov 28, 2021 14:17:13 GMT
An opposite example
Trying various amps and cables in my system (as was) there was absolutely no difference with what should have been better sounding kit.
Much head scratching until Tony at Coherent suggested trying Auram Montans in place of my wonderful Linn Isobariks.
That was it. Doors and windows to sound opened.
Swapping Montans to TAD E1s took another step up.
I'm certain that some who have tried different tweaks, whatever they be, has opened the doors and windows on an unpleasant system. Revealed to be unpleasant. Take the tweak away and back to sub optimal normal
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Post by ajski2fly on Nov 28, 2021 14:37:32 GMT
An opposite example Trying various amps and cables in my system (as was) there was absolutely no difference with what should have been better sounding kit. Much head scratching until Tony at Coherent suggested trying Auram Montans in place of my wonderful Linn Isobariks. That was it. Doors and windows to sound opened. Swapping Montans to TAD E1s took another step up. I'm certain that some who have tried different tweaks, whatever they be, has opened the doors and windows on an unpleasant system. Revealed to be unpleasant. Take the tweak away and back to sub optimal normal Yes, I think you are right in some aspects. But I am also starting to form the view that as you get better more revealing gear, front end, amps and speakers, then what they are interconnected with can present issues. For example stick a poor cable in and then you are likely to limit the end result, put a better one in and you are likely to reveal the true capabilities of the gear as a whole. OMG I think I am sounding like a HiFi sales man, trying to convince the purchaser of some new kit to ibuy better cables.  I think I need to go and lie down! |
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Post by Slinger on Nov 28, 2021 15:00:08 GMT
If you've no idea what's causing the positive reaction to the new element that has been added your system, or the old one revisited, the easiest way to stop one's head exploding is simply to call it "synergy," and move on.  |
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Post by MartinT on Nov 28, 2021 15:15:12 GMT
But I am also starting to form the view that as you get better more revealing gear, front end, amps and speakers, then what they are interconnected with can present issues. Bingo - there you have it. Years of forum twaddle and the point of better cables is nailed! This is also why some people never understand or cannot hear the benefits of better cables. They don't yet have the system resolution to make a difference. |
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Post by ajski2fly on Nov 28, 2021 15:40:41 GMT
If you've no idea what's causing the positive reaction to the new element that has been added your system, or the old one revisited, the easiest way to stop one's head exploding is simply to call it "synergy," and move on. Well whether as according to Martin it's a better cable that probably shields EMI/RFI better or it just works better with the current kit(Synergy) it would be nice to know if this is random shit or if I have found the complete answer to everything, of course 42. |
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Post by ajski2fly on Nov 28, 2021 15:52:02 GMT
But I am also starting to form the view that as you get better more revealing gear, front end, amps and speakers, then what they are interconnected with can present issues. Bingo - there you have it. Years of forum twaddle and the point of better cables is nailed! This is also why some people never understand or cannot hear the benefits of better cables. They don't yet have the system resolution to make a difference. I am beginning to develop an inexplicable fever and a loathing over all this. How many times have I heard a hifi salesman question my existing cables and detected that slight tut-tut giving me an immediate inferiority complex. Then only to be told that what I really need is the must have super duper cables made of magic un-obtainium that have been taken down to absolute zero and then very carefully brought back to room temperature without any molecular damage, to reveal an amazing and unexplained improvement to them at the atomic level enabling the improved transmission of electrons down their flow path resulting in superior sound quality, oh and by the way for the best connectors to get the most from them you need to add another 20% to the price. I just wish someone would qualitatively and scientifically define exactly what a 'Better' cable is to connect one piece of equipment to another.  |
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Post by MikeMusic on Nov 28, 2021 15:55:59 GMT
Better cable needs a better system  Of course to have a better system you have to upgrade parts of it. Can I interest you in this eye wateringly expensive thingy that does everything for everyone ? |
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Post by MartinT on Nov 28, 2021 16:05:11 GMT
Just follow your own path. Who listens to dealers or salesmen?
It's a learning journey and there are few shortcuts as every system is unique.
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Post by ajski2fly on Nov 28, 2021 16:44:27 GMT
Just follow your own path. Who listens to dealers or salesmen? It's a learning journey and there are few shortcuts as every system is unique. I agree, but it is somewhat frustrating, I suppose an obvious symptom of there being a myriad of HiFi gear available, the combinations that could be put together being vast, without even considering cables. I suppose "HiFi" really is a dealers/sales persons dream, they can just about say anything about any piece of hifi gear and put it into some sort of meaningful context good or bad whether true or not. I wonder how much kit out there is truly good at reproducing a recording from vinyl, tape or a digital source. I expect I will never know as my ears are now as old as me and only go up to 13Khz at best. |
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Post by julesd68 on Nov 28, 2021 18:10:24 GMT
Get a group of people in the room with the same system, some will notice differences with cables, some won't ... there is never any absolute truth in one person's opinions over another.
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Post by ajski2fly on Nov 29, 2021 16:36:04 GMT
Get a group of people in the room with the same system, some will notice differences with cables, some won't ... there is never any absolute truth in one person's opinions over another. Yes very true, I think it is very much down to the manner in which someone listens to music that determines what or how they hear it, and so minor/small changes by swapping cables for example can easily go unnoticed. Also an attitude of mind, whether open or closed to possibly experiencing something difference. I have several friends that put CD's of Vinyl on and carry on doing whatever, reading, tidying up, or even chatting with someone, in fact they hardly ever just focus on the music of what they are hearing from the system, so in these type of cases it probably is irrelevant what cables are used in their system or anyone else's. I know one or two others who have quite good HiFi equipment that they have put together over the years and have settled on a particular brand of cables speaker/interconnects primarily from reviews and have the view that what they have is the best and nothing else will improve it the SQ or make a difference, so getting them to listen to differences between cable would be lost on them. |
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Post by Mr Whippy on Nov 29, 2021 19:00:31 GMT
And time to get those speaker cables lifted off the floor!:
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Post by Mr Whippy on Nov 30, 2021 10:12:30 GMT
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Post by Mr Whippy on Nov 30, 2021 22:21:54 GMT
The reason for the videos is that all most ever consider are conductor purity and dielectric type, and the simple flow of electrons when it comes to cables, Could add capacitance, resistance and inductance, and throw in skin effect. Looking at the videos though, especially the the last, it becomes obvious that things aren't really as simple as they might appear at first.
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Post by John on Dec 1, 2021 4:43:49 GMT
I watched the videos and agree a lot more complex than I thought
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Post by MartinT on Dec 1, 2021 6:08:50 GMT
That would seem to correlate with why cables are so variable in performance.
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I think I need to go and lie down!
