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R2R DACs
Aug 5, 2021 15:27:26 GMT
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Post by julesd68 on Aug 5, 2021 15:27:26 GMT
What's the deal with R2R DACs?
Anyone out there own one now or previously?
I've never heard one but feel I should at some point. I must admit though that some of the comments I read online make me a bit nervous about spending significant cash.
'Warm' is a word that is used a lot as a descriptor and that puts me off - I want a DAC that is as neutral as possible. The other comment that comes up a lot is that they are DACs you can listen to all day without 'listener fatigue'. Hmm. Perhaps they sound less detailed and resolving, or do they roll off the top end?
I have also seen them described as DACs for vinyl lovers looking for 'analogue sound' from digital - I never understand that one. If I wanted analogue I would use my turntable. Presumably it's another reference to warmth etc etc
'Natural' is another R2R buzzword. That would imply that the sound is somehow closer to the live experience and that they reproduce tone and timbre more accurately. That is most appealing if correct but how is this possible, especially if adding warmth etc
All rather confusing, can anyone enlighten me?
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R2R DACs
Aug 5, 2021 15:38:38 GMT
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Post by John on Aug 5, 2021 15:38:38 GMT
I think Jerry has one Perhaps they mean no digital glare and not fatiguing I think this has been the criticism of digital for many years and thankfully I don't experience that. I agree it be more interesting if people were using worlds like musical, natural timbre depth low level detail and perhaps fun
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Post by MartinT on Aug 5, 2021 16:27:24 GMT
'Warm' is a word that is used a lot as a descriptor and that puts me off - I want a DAC that is as neutral as possible. Me too. 'Analogue like' is another phrase. I just want it to sound like the original if it can. I don't want it to sound like vinyl or tape.
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Post by petea on Aug 5, 2021 17:25:17 GMT
My primary DAC in Germany is the Lab12 Reference and this uses R2R. It is the same architecture that was used in the DAC1 and that is the one you heard in my system in the UK, Martin: we compared it with the Teddy Pardo DAC I think, which is Delta/Sigma and based on the Wolfson Micro WM8741 DAC chip and WM8804 digital receiver supplied over I2S. The TP DAC remains the main DAC in the UK for logistical reasons, but that will change when I get back as I managed to get hold of the ridiculously rare Lector Digicode S-192 to replace my Lector Digicode 704 that is handling the output of the Lector CD transport. This, as its name implies, can accept input up to 192 KHz and has 2 SPDIF inputs (1 RCA and 1 BNC) an AES-EBU AES-3 as XLR input (to take the standard output from their CD player), Toslink and USB and so will accept the USB from the Fidata Server and the digital output from the NDX2. It also has a WordClock input hence the purchase of the master-clock. The Lab12 DAC and the Lectors all have triodes in their output stages which the TP DAC does not, although when I spoke with Teddy some time back he did say he tended to voice is equipment towards a "valve sound" whatever that might mean!
I would not consider the R2R DACs that I have as warm sounding, but they are very natural sounding (as is the Digicode 704) and certainly do not fall short in the extraction of detail. The TP DAC is very similar in tonal signature to my elderly Meridian DACs (more so the 203 than the 263 despite the former being bitstream and the latter being delta/sigma) although with much greater detail resolution and a more extended bass response and it is still a superb piece of equipment (I have one here in Germany sitting next to an elderly Meridian 263: also Delta/Sigma and that sounds far more 'digital' in comparison).
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Post by robin5 on Aug 6, 2021 8:15:56 GMT
Another r2r user here. Using an Aqua Optologic to drive a tubed headamp. Originally had a Benchmark dac 3 for the same duties but found it a bit sterile whereas the Aqua has more soul. Whether that’s down to the architecture I’m not sure but it sounds very decent and also has a mention in this months hifi +.
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Post by Slinger on Aug 7, 2021 22:55:33 GMT
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Post by MartinT on Aug 7, 2021 23:01:41 GMT
Looks like a lot of DAC for the money.
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R2R DACs
Aug 8, 2021 0:44:45 GMT
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Post by julesd68 on Aug 8, 2021 0:44:45 GMT
Yes I've come across this DAC. Reputedly made by Denafrips, the Draco is the cheapest, then the Pegasus and the Aquarius at just over 2K. I can see why they might want to offer a 'budget' range of DACs but strange having the more expensive one to compete with the main Denafrips range. A bit of detective work on the subject has been done here - darko.audio/2020/06/kih-77-chinese-chimera/
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Post by MartinT on Aug 8, 2021 6:29:41 GMT
Shame it doesn't appear to have remote volume control.
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R2R DACs
Aug 8, 2021 12:59:51 GMT
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Post by julesd68 on Aug 8, 2021 12:59:51 GMT
I guess that was one of the ways of keeping price down - better to leave it out if they can't put a really good quality one in there.
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Post by MartinT on Aug 8, 2021 14:37:27 GMT
Probably down to the chipset. The ES9038 has digital volume implemented directly, this chipset is not familiar to me.
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Post by bigman80 on Aug 8, 2021 22:05:00 GMT
I have a Soekris 1421 with external LPSU (Not available commercially), which was recently compared to:
Musician Pegasus Orchard Audio PecanPi Soekris 1321 Topping D90 Topping D70 Topping D50 Topping D30 Soncoz
The warmest sounding of all of those was the Musician Pegasus. I found it distracting that it's bottom end was so fat and thick.
The Soekris DACs are both way more detailed and do this without any glare or grain. Some may suggest they are leaner that they expect, but replacement of the SMPS makes them far more natural in terms of tone. Not warm..... natural.
The Toppings never floated my boat. I found them quite 2D, and progressively more sharp in the HF as I went down the price list.
The Chinese R2R DACs I feel may be trying to bridge a gap between analogue and Digital, but I haven't heard enough of them to paint them all with the same brush.
Given a quality streamer (Auralic Aries G2) the 1421 simply became a DAC of immense quality to listen to.
Just my 2p
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R2R DACs
Aug 8, 2021 23:30:10 GMT
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Post by julesd68 on Aug 8, 2021 23:30:10 GMT
That's a proper DAC shoot-out, must have been very interesting Oliver!
I've got experience of three Topping models. I had the D30 for a while as part of my introduction to streaming / digital. Ultimately I found it quite musical but a bit soft, lacking in detail and rez. Tried a D50 but kept it for a matter of minutes, just couldn't get a decent sound out of it and much preferred the D30. I have a D70 now that works very well in my system and have absolutely no complaints, especially at the price I paid. However, that doesn't stop me keeping an eye on what else is out there ...
In terms of R2R the Soekris DACs are intriguing but seem to come up very rarely on the used market from what I've seen. I'd also be very interested to hear a Denafrips Pontus 2 at some point.
What did you make of the Soncoz? It appears to have become quite popular recently and isn't expensive.
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Post by bigman80 on Aug 9, 2021 8:35:35 GMT
That's a proper DAC shoot-out, must have been very interesting Oliver! I've got experience of three Topping models. I had the D30 for a while as part of my introduction to streaming / digital. Ultimately I found it quite musical but a bit soft, lacking in detail and rez. Tried a D50 but kept it for a matter of minutes, just couldn't get a decent sound out of it and much preferred the D30. I have a D70 now that works very well in my system and have absolutely no complaints, especially at the price I paid. However, that doesn't stop me keeping an eye on what else is out there ... In terms of R2R the Soekris DACs are intriguing but seem to come up very rarely on the used market from what I've seen. I'd also be very interested to hear a Denafrips Pontus 2 at some point. What did you make of the Soncoz? It appears to have become quite popular recently and isn't expensive. I thought the Soncoz had softer approach to things than any of the Topping DACs, but that may vary from system to system. I thought the D90 had a lot of resolution, was mostly grain free too, but I felt it was quite 2D The Soekris stuff doesn't sell in high number, so they are very rare to see used. The best one was the early 1421's, as Soren used 0.01% resistors. After #50 he started to use 0.05%...which even though it isn't huge, it would have bugged me. Not heard the new 2541 so can't say how good it is. No lack of resolution, detail etc straight from the box, but the fluidity, dimensionality and lucidity improved massively when we built the LPSU for it. I attached it to an Auralic Aries G2 last week, and it broke my mind with how good a DAC it is. I'm sure there are better, but for £800....I'm very pleased
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Post by MartinT on Aug 9, 2021 9:17:33 GMT
I just looked at the 1541, which looks like having a good set of features. I could see the three SMPS modules - does your LPSU replace all three? The 2541 appears to have a single (possibly multi-rail) SMPS.
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Post by bigman80 on Aug 9, 2021 9:21:54 GMT
I just looked at the 1541, which looks like having a good set of features. I could see the three SMPS modules - does your LPSU replace all three? The 2541 appears to have a single (possibly multi-rail) SMPS. The 1421 has two, both of which are replaced by independent power supplies. The 1541 had imaging issues for some reason, so it was updated to the 2541, which solved it. The 1421 was the best choice at the time.
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Post by TheMooN on Aug 10, 2021 8:50:21 GMT
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Post by MartinT on Aug 10, 2021 8:55:08 GMT
The use of valves and nixie tubes seems a little idiosyncratic. How does it sound?
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Post by TheMooN on Aug 10, 2021 9:50:26 GMT
Quite extraordinary to these ears Martin.
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Post by julesd68 on Aug 10, 2021 12:20:49 GMT
Congrats Roger - that looks like a very serious DAC, all 80kg of it!
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