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Post by ajski2fly on Jul 13, 2021 8:12:56 GMT
So lets say I compare the BT5 with the Limetree Network player. The Limetree has a touch more detail but it also has a edge to the sound and believe this was mainly due to the ethernet chain. I’m not sure if I am missing something here but am becoming quite confused by this thread with respect to playing streamed digital and what some seem to be saying. Firstly am I write that some of you are saying that streaming over broadband is better SQ than over Ethernet or WiFi? if you are this makes no sense to, broadband has a narrow band with and necessitates digital compression, see www.sereneaudio.com/blog/how-good-is-bluetooth-audio-at-its-best which is what I have understood for some years, even tough Bluetooth has improved this still holds true I believe. I assume (possibly wrongly that BT5 is being used to represent Bluetooth 5. I would point out that where purity of digital transmission is required, minimising risk of data loss is required the the industry standard still is Ethernet, that is why you still see in commercial installations, shops, businesses, and industry server rooms/cages fitted out with switches(computers), routers, modems etc that are hard wired together using Ethernet connected to a VPN(virtual private network) hard wired or optical. WiFi is and can be used for certain applications, such as customer service offerings on apps or even EPOS(electronic point of sale) systems on hand held devices, but these have their issues and limitations, I know even Apples in store EPOS is not without its issues. Bluetooth is nowhere to be seen as far as I am aware where data integrity is a priority. So my point and understanding is if you are looking for a high Sound Quality from digital mediums whether from streaming services (Tidal, Qobuz, Spotify, YouTube etc) or from stored digital files then you are likely to get best from Ethernet, not so good WiFi, then worst Bluetooth. If we are streaming from the internet we also need to consider the incoming data source quality and resolution, and also the quality(bandwidth) and reliability of the network supplier we are using(broadband or 4g/5G), and the device being used to process the data, currently most handheld mobile devices lower the bit rate to limit bandwidth requirements this has direct impact on SQ of rendered music. Where we are hoping to digitally stream music that is resolved as near as possible to the original there are many infrastructure steps the data goes through before it gets to the DAC that is going to convert it back to music and out to and amp and speaker(s). From above the key to getting as good result as possible is to limit the number of steps as much as possible and to use the best physical infrastructure that is going to cause the least degradation to the original data stream. Having said this we are all at the mercy of the infrastructure and processes before it reaches our own home, so it may already be quite corrupted from the original. The only way to test this would be data comparisons between the original data file and the received on, which I am sure somebody will have done in the world. I hope this makes some sense, I would be interested in your views on this, especially if I have misunderstood any aspects.
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Post by John on Jul 13, 2021 8:59:14 GMT
I am not a technical guy so not even going to try to justify my experience of what I hear its a debate that never finds a solution
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Post by MartinT on Jul 13, 2021 9:04:05 GMT
No Adrian, we are talking about the delivery path to the DAC. We all use broadband of one kind or another - in my case, 4G data via a TP-Link 4G router as it sounds better than using my Plusnet VDSL broadband.
What we are really discussing is how to get the digital signal processed and into the DAC with the minimum noise superimposed over the signal. It's this noise (jitter and phase noise) that kills sound quality.
My path is ethernet via an ethernet reclocker to the ultraRendu streamer, then USB to another reclocker and then to my DAC. John is sending Bluetooth to a receiver, then reclocker, then DAC.
The discussion point is whether air-gapping (breaking the physical connection to sources of noise) helps John and I achieve the quality we are hearing. 4G and Bluetooth are both methods of air-gapping, as is wi-fi (but I've never had great results with the latter).
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Post by John on Jul 13, 2021 9:39:03 GMT
I have had a poor experience with WiFi also if using as the means to send to the network player
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Post by ajski2fly on Jul 13, 2021 10:44:59 GMT
No Adrian, we are talking about the delivery path to the DAC. We all use broadband of one kind or another - in my case, 4G data via a TP-Link 4G router as it sounds better than using my Plusnet VDSL broadband. What we are really discussing is how to get the digital signal processed and into the DAC with the minimum noise superimposed over the signal. It's this noise (jitter and phase noise) that kills sound quality. My path is ethernet via an ethernet reclocker to the ultraRendu streamer, then USB to another reclocker and then to my DAC. John is sending Bluetooth to a receiver, then reclocker, then DAC. The discussion point is whether air-gapping (breaking the physical connection to sources of noise) helps John and I achieve the quality we are hearing. 4G and Bluetooth are both methods of air-gapping, as is wi-fi (but I've never had great results with the latter). Yes, this is what I thought you were talking about. However I believe my points are still valid in terms of the quality of the links in the chain to the DAC. However having done a bit of investigation I agree the dedicated 4G Router infrastructure you are using is most likely to give you best data quality and transmission rates to the DAC. Using Ethernet as you do is the best way I believe. I now understand that using a device like the UpTone Audio EtherREGEN Ethernet Switch to clean the ethernet and then using another re-clocker is probably the best way to clean things up. I cannot see that using Bluetooth in the data transmission chain as highlighted before is a good route to go, perhaps you can advise me why it would be good. I am not sure you use of the term air-gapping is quite appropriate, in normal context this means completely separating a computer from any network connection of any sort and transmitting data from another to it using a physical storage medium such as hard drive, USB stick or similar, this is primarily used in high security installations to try an stop hacking, however care has to be taken to not introduce spyware at the point of copying data onto the hard drive device used to physically transmit the data and then allowing unknown interrogation of the isolated computer and then enabling transmission when the hard drive device is re-introduced to a networked unit. I presume that what is meant in your context of air-gapping is effectively using a radio based transmission such as 4G, Bluetooth of Wifi as you say, personally I cannot see how any of these would help as from my understanding you would be introducing further handshake protocols and possible data loss due to errors, but I could be wrong.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 13, 2021 10:47:27 GMT
I was using 'air-gapping' to mean a break in the copper circuit of a digital feed.
I wasn't trying to confuse with the computer reference to air-gapped computers and backups, with which I am very familiar as it's my job.
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Post by John on Jul 13, 2021 11:13:57 GMT
Considering a Bluetooth receiver is silly money and if you have a BT5 enabled phone give a try and find out for yourself If it their was no pandemic I suggest we met up
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Post by John on Jul 13, 2021 11:21:31 GMT
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Post by MartinT on Jul 13, 2021 12:08:29 GMT
Very useful John - thanks.
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Post by ajski2fly on Jul 13, 2021 15:30:33 GMT
Sorry Martin, I wasn't aware of that. I am becoming more interested in improving streamed digital myself and it sounds like you have found Bluetooth 5 (BT5) works well, I had a read up and it seems there are several codecs that jake advantage of it well, I think? I have a iPhone SE that supports BT5 I am correct in my thinking that to try it out myself all I need is something like this and connect it up to my DAC and give it a go using the Qobuz app for example? Blue Tooth receiver
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Post by jandl100 on Jul 13, 2021 15:40:23 GMT
I bought a Bluetooth 5 receiver to try out in my mid fi conservatory system as a convenience source. Naturally I was curious and tried it in the Big Rig.
I now use Bluetooth aptX HD as my main source! It just sounds amazingly musical and "right" to my ears. Very happy with it.
If I were spec-obsessed I wouldn't touch it, as I'm sure the numbers are poor, but from a "if it sounds good it is good" philosophy it's a definite winner for me.
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Post by ajski2fly on Jul 13, 2021 15:44:33 GMT
I was using 'air-gapping' to mean a break in the copper circuit of a digital feed. I wasn't trying to confuse with the computer reference to air-gapped computers and backups, with which I am very familiar as it's my job. I meant to add that I am starting to form the opinion that well recorded digital music can sound very good if the system used to resolve it is set up well. It may be a route I go down if funds allow, I would be interested in your and others thoughts how to approach it without spending vast sums if possible.
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Post by ajski2fly on Jul 13, 2021 15:53:25 GMT
I bought a Bluetooth 5 receiver to try out in my mid fi conservatory system as a convenience source. Naturally I was curious and tried it in the Big Rig. I now use Bluetooth aptX HD as my main source! It just sounds amazingly musical and "right" to my ears. Very happy with it. If I were spec-obsessed I wouldn't touch it, as I'm sure the numbers are poor, but from a "if it sounds good it is good" philosophy it's a definite winner for me. Thanks Jerry that’s very helpful info, what did you buy or was it just one like I found to give it a try? Also what do you use to stream using BT5 to the receiver? I think if I liked what I heard using my iPhone SE then I’d need to consider what kit to use and whether it would be better to move to a 4G router as well🤔 this would mean ditching the ADSL router service. Have you got into re-clocking as well, or not bothered?
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Post by julesd68 on Jul 13, 2021 15:57:43 GMT
I believe an iPhone SE won't be an ideal source as it only supports the SBC codec.
You really need access to LDAC and APTX-HD. I ended up buying a modestly priced tablet to do the job.
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Post by jandl100 on Jul 13, 2021 16:12:41 GMT
I bought a Bluetooth 5 receiver to try out in my mid fi conservatory system as a convenience source. Naturally I was curious and tried it in the Big Rig. I now use Bluetooth aptX HD as my main source! It just sounds amazingly musical and "right" to my ears. Very happy with it. If I were spec-obsessed I wouldn't touch it, as I'm sure the numbers are poor, but from a "if it sounds good it is good" philosophy it's a definite winner for me. Thanks Jerry that’s very helpful info, what did you buy or was it just one like I found to give it a try? Also what do you use to stream using BT5 to the receiver? I think if I liked what I heard using my iPhone SE then I’d need to consider what kit to use and whether it would be better to move to a 4G router as well🤔 this would mean ditching the ADSL router service. Have you got into re-clocking as well, or not bothered? I use one of these... www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264774340054I use my Huawei PSmart phone with Spotify. I started out in the streaming world with Tidal then Qobuz. But I find I actually like the sound of Spotify. Each of the services have a different tonal presentation ime, so system tuning is usually needed when swapping from one to another. Reclocking. Yes, tried it. I find I'm not a believer. I'm sure the numbers are better, but it makes eff all musical difference to my ears. So, a phone that can support Bluetooth aptX HD, a £50 Bluetooth receiver, and a nice digital cable into your DAC. Sorted.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 13, 2021 16:47:40 GMT
I meant to add that I am starting to form the opinion that well recorded digital music can sound very good if the system used to resolve it is set up well. It may be a route I go down if funds allow, I would be interested in your and others thoughts how to approach it without spending vast sums if possible. I really encourage trying it. Not everything in digital is cheap, but you can certainly choose a path and learn from our mistakes. Start by thinking through whether you want to stream music from your controller out to, say, a Bluetooth receiver (and then DAC), or use a device to control a streamer connected to the DAC. They each have their merits and pitfalls. Consider noise to be the No. 1 enemy.
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Post by John on Jul 13, 2021 17:25:20 GMT
Lots of cheap ways into digital Bluetooth apt HD Jerry uses this LDAC I use. Both are good Needs to be Android 9 or above if going with LDAC stay away from Lenonovo as intergration issues Should be OK for Apt HD Some members still enjoy the Raspberry Pi and ASUS tinkerboard I prefer the tinkerboard to the pi but you will have to factor enter etc cables You need a good DAC but some CD players can be used as a DAC A range of opinions on DACs if you can find a dealer and try a few to find out what is your poison It's a slippery slope one of which might forever change how you listen to music For instance I never could see Jules liking the approach I had to spend a lot on reclocking to fully appreciate it. Martin has done similar But my advice is not to worry about this at this stage Like Jerry I get a natural sound with no leading edge
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Post by ajski2fly on Jul 13, 2021 19:24:35 GMT
Thanks Martin and John for your replies. even though I have been in IT for many years, digital streaming and its vagueries are not my area of expertise, plus it has moved on rapidly since I first got into aspects of it.
I have two digital streaming avenues at present, firstly RPI/Hifiberry Digi into Audiolab 8300CDQ DAC, previously I was using a Caiman SEG DAC(fully upgraded) bit want to loose an ever growing number of boxed hence the 8300CDQ which is surprisingly. Secondly my MacBook Pro connect by a reasonable USB cable to the Audiolab. I use Qobuz mainly at the moment, decided it is better SQ files than Tidal, even though Tidal has a nice interface. I also have Audivirna on the Mac so can control it all from iPad or iPhone, I switch all processing of in Audvarna and let the Sabre DAC in the Audiolab do its thing. I used to use Volumio more but am not convinced by SQ with it, but need to revisit.
So as you can see I am not really a digital virgin, more a foot in the pond, since acquiring the Audiolab and actually connecting up the sensible way using a reasonable USB cable from the MacBook I have realise some of the errors of my ways and are rather pleased with the results. But as noted in this thread you and Jerry seem to have hit on what may be a neater and better solution, at present anyway, BT5 using LDAC or aptX HD from an inexpensive mobile tablet or phone.
My main interest is to get as much from digital in terms of SQ for a not too costly investment and one that is simple to use. I do not really like tying up the MacBook for streaming and am pretty certain the RPI/hifiberry as it is inferior in end SQ at present.
I think I may try out the android tablet to BT5 receiver route and see what I think of the SQ in comparison to the others, then I will scratch my head about the 4G Router instead of ADSL or not and whether re-clockng is worth a go, I think the financial hill starts to become quite steep then.
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Post by MartinT on Jul 13, 2021 20:13:45 GMT
I agree that Qobuz sounds the best of the services I've tried. The interface doesn't matter to me although in the car and on my phone it's fine. For the hi-fi, I use BubbleUPnP which has a very good interface including useful metadata.
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Post by John on Jul 13, 2021 20:37:19 GMT
The great thing about once you setup BT, you just play from whatever service you want. If you get a 10inch tablet like me YouTube will surprise you. I now even go premium with YouTube as I use it so much. I find a 8inch tablet to small for YouTube. I not really tried Quobuz on it. I think that is probably where you going to run into its limits. With Files it is great there are few apps that you can use WAV or FLAC but most do not.
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