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Post by MartinT on Aug 24, 2019 8:45:02 GMT
I've been fortunate in the DACs I've owned, but I've heard plenty of others too.
My very first DAC was an Assemblage DAC3.0, made from a kit of parts. It used the Pacific Microsonics PCD100, a DAC known to sound good and it did for its time. I used it with an Audio Research CD transport. Then I went through a series of Stan's excellent products, starting with the original Caiman, then Bushmaster and SEG. They sounded progressively better and, by the time I ended up with the modified SEG, quite superb. One family trait is their musicality and lack of harshness, a characteristic of the Wolfson series.
Now I have an LKS MH-DA004 and I've written plenty about it. Resolution is on another level and that exposes issues you never thought you had in your system. The Sabre 9038 are resolution beasts.
I thought I would be able to distinguish a house sound with chipsets by now but I really don't think you can. I used to think the earlier Sabre DACs were harsh, but then I have heard implementations that sounded good. There are also R2R ladder DACs that sound more analogue-like but lose out on resolution and custom FPGA DACs like the PS Audios that have their own sound. Upsampling is another tricky area and it doesn't always work well, depending on how good the DAC is at the higher sampling rate.
Too many times in shows I've heard a DAC sound poor, but I know that often it's the room setup or associated system. It's not fair to name them as they may well be good in a different scenario.
So what have you heard that sounds good or otherwise? Is a DAC central to your system?
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Post by John on Aug 24, 2019 9:56:05 GMT
My first DAC was a PS Audio DAC After that I tried quite a few Chinese DACs. Sorry I just cannot remember the names. I then moved onto the Beresford range all the way up to highly modified Seg I am now using the Topping D70 a lovely DAC that can compete with DACs costing double its price. At some point, I get a better clock and power supply for it, but no rush. I disagree a bit around chips. I think to get the best from the Sabre based DAC you have to do quite a bit of work to take away those edges it has in stock form. I think most people actually just want to plug and play and not have to worry about modifying. I totally agree extra resolution exposes issues you did not know you had. For instance, I have become slightly OCD about managing my cable runs I also agree implementation is the key to getting the best out of your DAC. Power supplies, Clocks, vibration, RFI, Jitter etc all make a difference.
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Post by MartinT on Aug 24, 2019 10:19:51 GMT
I think to get the best from the Sabre based DAC you have to do quite a bit of work to take away those edges it has in stock form. My point is that I don't think the Sabre chips (at least, the 9038) have any 'edges' in the actual design. I think the vast resolution exposes issues in the rest of the system and also in the DAC implementation itself. Once all has been sorted, you have enormous resolution and a highly rhythmic, dynamic, infectious sound. The inference then, is that the 9038s cannot themselves be to blame for any harshness.
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Post by John on Aug 24, 2019 10:36:14 GMT
I get your point Martin However the LKS in stock form should be doing a better job in the first place. Your DAC now has great flow and resolution I am not quite there with the resolution you have but that sense of flow is as good without modifications so is that down to better implementation or the chip I am not sure
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Post by wannarock2 on Aug 24, 2019 14:47:58 GMT
I've had a Burr-Brown DAC setup in the HiFiBerry Pi which to me had a very thin soundstage, a Texas Instruments PCM5122 DAC in the Allo Boss Pi which was fatiguing after less than an hour and now the Katana Pi Sabre Ess9038q2m which is divine to my ears. Implementation must be key, but I was surprised by the total disconnect between the two Allo product implementations.
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Post by MartinT on Aug 24, 2019 17:54:31 GMT
That's really interesting. My lovely old Pioneer PD-91 CD player used a Burr-Brown DAC and it was anything but thin. Fairly rich, I would call it. Not the last word in resolution, but damned musical. Lots of attention to the power supply and chassis. The Katana using the mobile version of the 9038 and Allo designing it is significant. They know about implementation, especially power supplies.
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Post by wannarock2 on Aug 25, 2019 1:52:13 GMT
Maybe the HIFIBerry Dac suffered due to its sub-par clocks. Hard to say, but the sound stage was not well refined. I hear you on implementation. My guess is some engineers have a better understanding of all the 'parts' at the time of overall deployment. I was puzzled with the Allo Boss on their implementation with the TI chip. Maybe price. Having said that, I've moved my Boss to a lower-level audio system (game room like) and it sounds rather better. All relative I guess.
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Post by mattspl on Aug 25, 2019 13:45:47 GMT
I’ve only owned 2 Dac’s. The Matrix Quattro and the Resolution Audio Cantata 2.0. I still have them both, but only use the Cantata at the moment.
When I first got the Cantata, the first thing I noticed was a definite change in tonal balance. I had to tweak my dsp to correct the differences in bass balance. I also noticed that the 2 Dac’s didn’t sound massively different on first listen.
After a few hours with the Cantata, things started to make sense. It’s treble speed and detail was miles ahead of the Matrix and the Cantata’s rhythmic ability was addictive. Complex music no longer sounded congested, such was the agility of the Cantata, yet it managed this speed whilst sounding relaxed like it wasn’t rushing things. Great P.R.A.T is the term I would use to describe the Cantata’s abilities. I wouldn’t be without it now and I haven’t even tried Hi-res music on it yet.
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Post by Slinger on Aug 25, 2019 15:42:49 GMT
I've still got the TEAC UD-H01 in my main system that I bought in 2012. It still sounds good, it handles up to 24/192, it's a passable headphone amp, and it's even got a balanced output should I suddenly start believing that these things make a difference over a 0.5m pair of interconnect cables. I've been through a few DACs in other systems - a Bushmaster, a couple of different SMSLs, etc. - but I've never felt the desire or the need to swap the TEAC out of my main system.
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Post by MartinT on Aug 25, 2019 16:00:15 GMT
it's even got a balanced output should I suddenly start believing that these things make a difference over a 0.5m pair of interconnect cables Different subject, I know, but it's not the interconnects so much as driving the components in their preferred way. This is not easily predictable, but for example I tried my LKS DAC to Pass preamp as a single-ended run and then a balanced run. No contest, the balanced connection sound so much punchier, more dynamic and with better bass. Pass are known for their internally balanced designs. It's always worth trying and you don't need very expensive balanced cables to try it - a pair of Blue Jeans would tell you what you need to know.
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Post by Pinch on Aug 25, 2019 17:02:20 GMT
I've used relatively few DACs. The first standalone one I bought was DacMagic+. It was a little dissapointing - it did certain things well, but I found the sound too upfront and edgy. This was highlighted very clearly when I played the same track via the DAC and a stock Technics 1210 simultaneously, switching between the two - again, there were certain things which the DAC did better, but the turntable easily came out on top overall. This prompted me to tackle what I felt might be a weakpoint on the DAC - the USB input. I invested in what, at the time, was one of the most well regarded USB interfaces, and this transformed the sound - it delivered a big bump in resolution, whilst also removing all the hard edges (the first time I used it my jaw literally dropped). Some time later I switched to an Audiolab MDAC, but continued to use the same USB interface. I actually found that, with the interface in play, the gap between the two DACs was much less obvious - there's a certain highly agreeable character to the sound that came along with the interface to the MDAC. I've since found that when using the interface with other DACs (including Martin's) that familiar character comes along. I'm in no rush to get a new DAC - the technology seems to be moving fast and I'm happy to follow what others are up to and see where things go.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2019 9:21:39 GMT
Over years well over 50 dac's some latest only a few hours In my experience it is the implementation of said dac chipset that is key to a quality sound what ever the cost, my current reference dac uses BB 1794's in dual diff mode, and it produces some of the most natural sounds I have yet have the pleasure of listening to. Currently the little Topping D70 is streets ahead of the usual suspects plus its very natural,and can be made into a real giant killer imho Still one of the best dac's for musical involvement and real long term listening, is a 25 year old model, so much music in the Wadia 15 its embarrassing for most of the latest crop of so called mater dac's using the sublime Burr Brown PCM 63E chips
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Post by The Brookmeister on Aug 27, 2019 21:36:16 GMT
ALL HEARD AND OWNED / BORROWED / LOANED
GOOD DACS
CAD DAC
LAB12 DAC
LONGDOG VDTS1 DAC
SOULUTION DAC
OK DACS
LKS DAC
TOPPING DAC
BAD DACS
ANYTHING BY CHORD
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Post by jandl100 on Aug 28, 2019 6:58:25 GMT
Lots of DACs here, past and present Too much to recount, but some highlights... Stan Beresford's DAC of the day handily seeing off my beloved Mark Levinson No 39 player. My shock at hearing my that first Beresford DAC. It was a random ebay purchase when I was looking for a cheapo for a 2nd system. Streets ahead of anything else I'd heard at any price imo. My sadness when I dimwittedly sent 250V through my lovely sounding 110V Ed Meitner DAC. A Xiangsheng DAC 01A opened my eyes and ears to what the Chinese were up to and a Topping D30 rather astonished me with its budget priced excellence. I liked a Chord Hugo (but hated a Hugo mk2). Loved my old Benchmark DAC1 for its bold and authoratative sound. Recent discovery of Yulong DACs, one with a Sabre chip, one with a AK chip. They sound remarkably similar! And very good. An Audiolab MDAC does me fine in my 2nd system. Currently happy with an Audiobyte Black Dragon in system numero uno. I'm not sure I've come across a 'bad DAC'*. Some mediocrities, yes, but not bad sounding. Some that failed to inspire much include Theta Gen V, M2Tech Young, MF A3.24, Jolida FX3. * Edit : Actually, the only 'bad' DAC I can think of is the Chord Hugo2, the absolute opposite of musical; cold and sterile.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2019 8:01:53 GMT
I see a theme developing here, Chord dac's one which I totally agree with, over rated bling that lacks any emotion or musicality what so ever, though the Hugo is listenable. Definitely marketing over substanc.
Remember you are nobody without 1 million taps, other than someone who actually likes listening to music rather than having the music's soul ripped out by the David Franks patented method (musical involvement vacuum array) which his company has had in place for nearly 20 years a great achievement for zombies of music less playback which inhibit many forums and magazines
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Post by Slinger on Aug 28, 2019 12:45:07 GMT
I believe I've mentioned it before, but as one who scans eBay on a daily basis, and who has a passing interest in DACs, the product I see most (by a long chalk) being sold used/pre-owned is the Chord Mojo. It honestly stuck out like a sore thumb to me, almost from the day it was released. That alone would make me wary of buying a Chord DAC.
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Post by wannarock2 on Aug 28, 2019 15:27:39 GMT
It appears Chord uses a field-programmable gate array (FPGA) circuit designed to be configured by a designer after manufacturing as opposed to chip-based delta-sigma DAC's (digital-to-analog converter chips manufactured by a third party). This may affect the sound precision in the overall design of a high-performance DAC. Maybe an approach not ready for prime time.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2019 9:15:32 GMT
Yes indeed folks, Here' some rock and rock, just not on Chord dac
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Post by The Brookmeister on Sept 1, 2019 16:30:42 GMT
It appears Chord uses a field-programmable gate array (FPGA) circuit designed to be configured by a designer after manufacturing as opposed to chip-based delta-sigma DAC's (digital-to-analog converter chips manufactured by a third party). This may affect the sound precision in the overall design of a high-performance DAC. Maybe an approach not ready for prime time. The thing I hate about Chord is they could easily make their dac's upgradeable using software downloads like PS Audio do but they don't, they make you buy the up-graded version, pants indeed. I cannot complain though as Nick makes hundreds of power supplies for their DAC's. THe Qutest is the latest one, powered off a mobile phone charger out of the box! LOL
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Post by John on Sept 1, 2019 17:18:25 GMT
A better power supply certainly helps the ones I heard
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