Tobias
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Post by Tobias on Jan 7, 2024 14:12:24 GMT
I agree on the big part of your technical description (except for the fact that no single switch/cable can stop the noise, regardless) but i don´t agree on the logic/virtues of running non shielded the last bit into the hifi equipment, if you want a truly low digital noise floor.
If my cable would be badly built for its purpose (which it isn´t since it made my DAC sound amazing compared to the prior one) then I would maybe start to question my cable, yes. (having said that, there are better cables, and switches, for sure! :-))
It is ok that we disagree, at least from my part.
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Post by brettj on Jan 7, 2024 18:57:59 GMT
But unshielded goes right against all common sense for me know, when I have concluded how important shielding is to preserve a low noise floor... :-). I hear you, and sort of understand, but it feels a bit weird. But I have been surprised before, on the other hand.
It took me a while to get my head around this but once you understand how a network switch does its audio magic (even one that wasn't designed for audio at all will give some benefit), it makes sense. Worth reading around and of course experimenting.
Lots of research before I purchased two ethernet cables, putting them from wifi extender to switch, and switch to streamer. A few articles/forums suggested unshielded Cat6 as optimum in this position. Was looking at Sablon 2020, but settled on Triode Wire Labs Freedom cables. Very happy with them. |
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Tobias
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Post by Tobias on Jan 7, 2024 19:11:25 GMT
Aha, i might have drawn some wrong conclusions about the absolute need for shielding, since i see that these are not! The reason for the non shielding is different though, when reading their specifications, then what was described by TheFlash...?
Since I haven´t tried non shielded, as i said, I can´t of course say that it wouldn´t be even better. But i want to stress that I was also very surprised about the improvements that my shielded cable gave.
I must admit that i thought non-shielded basically equaled non-audio grade ethernet cables...
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Post by NigelB on Jan 7, 2024 21:08:45 GMT
I agree on the big part of your technical description (except for the fact that no single switch/cable can stop the noise, regardless) but i don´t agree on the logic/virtues of running non shielded the last bit into the hifi equipment, if you want a truly low digital noise floor. If my cable would be badly built for its purpose (which it isn´t since it made my DAC sound amazing compared to the prior one) then I would maybe start to question my cable, yes. (having said that, there are better cables, and switches, for sure! :-)) It is ok that we disagree, at least from my part. I know how switches work and how grounded-at-both-ends shielded cables can stop them doing that. Of course you are at liberty to disagree, but it would be good if you could up some counter-logic.
Badly built cables are an unnecessary distraction here; no-one else is talking about them and they do not form part of my argument for unshielded or single-grounded cables.
If you have tried an unshielded cable and prefer a shielded one, that's cool; if you happen to know whether your preferred shielded cable is single-end-grounded, that's even cooler. But please don't simply dismiss unshielded cables based on seeking a "truly low digital noise floor" because the wrong shielded cable can give you a higher digital noise floor than an unshielded one!
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Post by NigelB on Jan 7, 2024 21:10:30 GMT
Aha, i might have drawn some wrong conclusions about the absolute need for shielding, since i see that these are not! The reason for the non shielding is different though, when reading their specifications, then what was described by TheFlash...? Since I haven´t tried non shielded, as i said, I can´t of course say that it wouldn´t be even better. But i want to stress that I was also very surprised about the improvements that my shielded cable gave. I must admit that i thought non-shielded basically equaled non-audio grade ethernet cables... Great post.
I do wish more manufacturers were as explicit as Melco are with their C100; at a little over £100 for a 1m cable, it's fabulous that they are explicit about which end is grounded. It can't be hard!
Ideally, I'd like a CAT8 cable (tightly twisted pairs for maximum noise rejection, each of these 4 pairs foiled for further protection, outer cable foil shield also) which I knew had the outer shield grounded only at one end. I'm going to buy a stock cable and butcher it along these lines, when I can find the time.
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Tobias
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Post by Tobias on Jan 7, 2024 21:45:16 GMT
But there are also good reasons for why companies, that has invested a lot of research in trying to get there cables to perform better then their competition in an audio context, is not explaining exactly what they have done, i guess. Once it is known what is best then we can of course buy it from kina for nothing.
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Post by NigelB on Jan 7, 2024 22:03:56 GMT
But there are also good reasons for why companies, that has invested a lot of research in trying to get there cables to perform better then their competition in an audio context, is not explaining exactly what they have done, i guess. Once it is known what is best then we can of course buy it from kina for nothing. Yes, I do understand this. I guess that means I should not modify a Cat8 to have its shield connected at only one end, I should just buy and try the Melco!
The challenge for manufacturers of "boutique" ethernet cables is that, unlike speaker cables or interconnects where manufacturers have to balance all sorts of electrical parameters, in ethernet there are only two considerations: will the data get there reliably and how can I reduce the noise accompanying that signal to an absolute minimum. That's it.
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Tobias
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Post by Tobias on Jan 7, 2024 22:16:54 GMT
What I meant with "badly built cables" was of course "shielded in both ends", since you say that it is bad.
It just feels unbelievable that WireWorld and Audioquest (and others), that are rather big and respected, wouldn´t have figured this out by themselves since it feels so "simple"? After all, the vast majority of their ethernet cables must be used between a switch and a streamer, i am thinking, and that is where they probably do most of their testing/listening tests.
I am very much aware that i might have paid a premium for my cables and if the Melco is just as good, for much cheaper, then i would have selected that one, if i knew it for sure.
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Post by NigelB on Jan 7, 2024 22:37:38 GMT
What I meant with "badly built cables" was of course "shielded in both ends", since you say that it is bad. It just feels unbelievable that WireWorld and Audioquest (and others), that are rather big and respected, wouldn´t have figured this out by themselves since it feels so "simple"? After all, the vast majority of their ethernet cables must be used between a switch and a streamer, i am thinking, and that is where they probably do most of their testing/listening tests. I agree. It would make life easier if they said so, but it's not their job to make life easy! As you say, they hopefully do ground only one end of the shield. I suppose I should save my arguments for those who insist stock Cat8 is a great cable between switch and streamer. |
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Post by brettj on Jan 8, 2024 9:04:13 GMT
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Post by NigelB on Jan 8, 2024 16:54:51 GMT
The C1AE has its shield grounded at both ends; the newer C100 does not. I was speaking of the latter. |
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Post by orange55 on Jan 9, 2024 11:27:31 GMT
Thanks. In view of the current performance I already achieve with the EtherREGEN, and trusting John Swenson's designs and circuit description, I shall be ordering the EtherREGEN Gen 2 when it's released this year. I think this approach is spot on. Given your journey to date replacing a key component in the chain with another manufactures sonic signature could well more your system to a different sound, rather than improving on the current sound. I know when I demoed a number of switches they all had a slightly different sound and I went with the type of sound I wanted in my system. |
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Post by MartinT on Jan 9, 2024 11:43:18 GMT
That's my thinking. Knowing what I heard when I was experimenting with SFPs and optical cables, the difference between them was shocking and hard to accept at first. Everything about the digital chain makes a contribution and it has taken a lot of time to reach the configuration I have now.
Bear in mind, too, that I use the EtherREGEN in the 'wrong' direction, with the router feeding the 'B' side so that I can use the 'A' side SFP cage to feed optical to the Signature Rendu SE streamer, which accepts only optical input. Now think of how the EtherREGEN Gen 2, with gigabit both ends, an SFP cage on the 'B' side, a superior sinewave clock recovery circuit, and general lower noise throughout the design, might sound like? It's not going to be worse, and what I have is already superb.
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Post by assisi on Jan 9, 2024 22:53:22 GMT
Thanks. In view of the current performance I already achieve with the EtherREGEN, and trusting John Swenson's designs and circuit description, I shall be ordering the EtherREGEN Gen 2 when it's released this year. I know when I demoed a number of switches they all had a slightly different sound and I went with the type of sound I wanted in my system. My experience and preference are to utilise 2 or more audio switches than just one in my audio digital network. Each switch has its own flavour. A combination of a synergy of flavours is for me better than just one. The trick is to find which combination of switches works with other switches or two or more and in what order to configure them to achieve the best benefit. Are there any other posters in this thread like me who have several switches in their network? I do not have a streamer. Just a Roon core, the network and the DAC has Ethernet in.
John
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Post by MartinT on Jan 10, 2024 5:25:12 GMT
My router is the first switch in the network, taking internet from 4G+. That is fed from a linear supercap PSU. The EtherREGEN follows that, with a 1m Supra Cat8 cable, itself also powered from a linear supercap PSU. Then onto the 5m fibre run to the streamer. It's simple and short.
I will experiment with leaving the EtherREGEN in circuit when I get the EtherREGEN Gen 2, but that adds complexity and another PSU.
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Tobias
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Post by Tobias on Jan 10, 2024 7:18:51 GMT
Regarding several switches.
In my mind, the power supply is increasingly important the lower the noise floor becomes. The more the noise is isolated/filtered the more the cables also need to protect that low noise floor.
For those reasons it soon becomes expensive with switch stacking, even with rather cheap switches, since you "need" good power and good ethernet cables also, the better it gets.
I personally think the source in the network is tremendously important, and often neglected. The cleaner the source, the less filtering is needed.
That is at least my thoughts on this topic, when working with ethernet signal.
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Post by assisi on Jan 10, 2024 9:20:36 GMT
The two posts above in response to mine are to some extent come from opposite positions. The first is about simplicity and the second an acknowledgment of the difficulties of complexity. I have a complex network. There are 10/11 switches, various cables and power supplies. I am not unique. I know others with networks of up to 10 switches It takes time and a lot of experimenting to develop a complex network to deliver special outcomes. As I said on my previous post.
“The trick is to find which switch works with another switch or two and in what order to configure them”.
I consider that the complexity delivers benefits with streaming for me. When you get it right the outcome can be amazing
John
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Post by MartinT on Jan 10, 2024 9:27:55 GMT
I do have the advantage of a completely separate and independent network in my music room, dedicated to streaming music.
The main house has its own wireless mesh network.
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Tobias
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Post by Tobias on Jan 10, 2024 9:37:34 GMT
same here. I have chosen to break out my physical HiFi network from the rest of the network using a WiFi Extender/Repeater, to reset the ethernet status. I do understand if people are not keen on introducing WiFi though.
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Post by orange55 on Jan 10, 2024 10:20:56 GMT
I also have multiple audio switches in place after a number of trails I now have a sound I really like.
I have router fed with Plixir balanced psu > Chord Signature Tuned Array Ethernet > Melco NA1 (This has built in filtering, all traffic goes via this. I was surprised when I removed it from the chain how big an impact it was having on streaming content, so went back in.) > Chord Super Array Ethernet > first SOtM Switch > Fibre > second SotM switch > Chord Music to Streamer. Both switches are power by Plixir Balanced PSU's.
I tried a combination of a number of other switches and filtering devices along my journey but this set-up is the winner for me.
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