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Post by MartinT on Mar 17, 2018 13:07:59 GMT
The powerline plugs are injecting high frequency modulation onto the mains waveform representing ethernet traffic. To your system, this looks like a lot of noise. It's not even random, there is sense (patterns) to it which makes it even worse. This is why I went to some trouble to rig a meshing wi-fi setup in my house, I won't have powerline ethernet anywhere near it. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2018 14:28:46 GMT
Ok that makes sense. How about WiFi extenders? Are they ok?
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Post by Stratmangler on Mar 17, 2018 14:34:29 GMT
Ok that makes sense. How about WiFi extenders? Are they ok? The ones that connect over WiFi have SMPS, so that SMPS will radiate switching noise back onto your mains. Stick the thing on a trailing plug board with a ferrite clamp at the board end and it will suppress the switching noise. |
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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 17, 2018 15:17:24 GMT
ThanksFor a phone with a wall wart.. one at each end ? Why? Pic shows at the plug. Martin suggests by the device Eh ? Straight into a mains socket. Might be able to work out where to put a power bar which other stuff can go in and sort that Pic showed the wallwart exit point ....? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2018 15:46:12 GMT
Ok that makes sense. How about WiFi extenders? Are they ok? The ones that connect over WiFi have SMPS, so that SMPS will radiate switching noise back onto your mains. Stick the thing on a trailing plug board with a ferrite clamp at the board end and it will suppress the switching noise. What’s a trailing plug board? Do you mean a 4/6 way block? |
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Post by dsjr on Mar 17, 2018 16:26:39 GMT
Plug board, trailing block, I think it's the same thing 
Through necessity twenty five years ago when living in Lu'on (sniff!), I began using clip-on ferrites and the first one made the largest difference (one on each ATC speaker mains cable). I was convinced the bass was slightly more tuneful and 'repeatedly imagined' a negative reaction when these were removed. Conversely, the AVI preamp and matching CD players had no need for them at all, but then, their designer has a way with power supplies and rf rejection is a speciality of his from a previous electronics career I gather. As the decades have moved on and smps power supplies sprang up everywhere, I have to confess I just automatically added more as necessary to each mains block and also to individual items plugged into them. Overkill? Of course it is and in our coastal location probably unnecessary too.
The thing with these devices is that they're cheap, easily fitted and removed and you're not risking anything by using them. I've even found that some wideband interconnects seem to benefit as well and I maintain a Mark Grant HD1000 cable I have with original RCAs on, sounded 'better' with one on each, as did a Chord Co 'Solid' interconnect I once had. I suspect it's as much to do with what's coming out of the source component rather than picking up external radiation and I do remember those old Philips Multi-bit chipsets being rather 'filthy' in their audio outputs, the universal op-amps used, even back then, having far too wide a bandwidth for audio use - in my current opinion obviously...
P.S. For all our sins, we're with Talk Talk and as part of the package, we received a new freeview +HD TV box which is supposed to be connected to the router for all the extra goodies we don't require. It came with powerline plugs and I refuse to use them also. Apparently, they're reportedly short-wave radio transmitters too, despite the other nasties they put into the mains as part of their job. Our mains is terrible enough without these things polluting it further in my opinion. |
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Post by Stratmangler on Mar 17, 2018 20:38:00 GMT
Pic shows at the plug. Martin suggests by the device Eh ? Straight into a mains socket. Might be able to work out where to put a power bar which other stuff can go in and sort that Pic showed the wallwart exit point ....? You're struggling with this one, aren't you Mike? |
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Post by MartinT on Mar 18, 2018 7:18:40 GMT
Mike, let's start again. What you're trying to do is kill noise. SMPS (Switched Mode Power Supplies) are the worst, but not the only, culprits.
There are two distinct actions:
1. At the noise source, you're trying to stop the noise getting OUT, back into the mains and airborne.
2. At the hi-fi system, you're trying to stop the noise getting IN.
Therefore, use snap chokes as follows:
1. As close to the noise source as possible. So on a Sky Box, around the mains cable right near the chassis at the back. The same on routers, base stations etc. Anything that has its own mains flying lead. So a laptop charger, same thing: on the mains side, up close to the charger block.
If you have wall-warts, you can't do this. So plug them into a 4-way strip and put a choke around the cable close to the strip.
2. At the hi-fi system, use chokes around the cable close to the wall socket. For airborne interference, use another one close to the rear chassis too.
The result of this will be a very quiet system for a little effort and an outlay of a few tens of Pounds.
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Post by DaveC on Mar 18, 2018 8:10:32 GMT
Martin is spot on, assuming you have any noise to start with. As far as I know there are no continuously running SMPS's in this house. If I found one I would change it and have done on just a couple of units. It's way better to "to close the stable door before the horse could bolt"
Of course, all this assumes that there are SMPS's "and" they are causing interference".
Dave
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Post by ChrisB on Mar 18, 2018 10:08:15 GMT
On the other hand, you could just listen to some music, Mike.
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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 18, 2018 10:53:16 GMT
Pic shows at the plug. Martin suggests by the device Eh ? Straight into a mains socket. Might be able to work out where to put a power bar which other stuff can go in and sort that Pic showed the wallwart exit point ....? You're struggling with this one, aren't you Mike? With the information laid out so far who isn't ? (that doesn't already know about ferrite chokes) |
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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 18, 2018 10:54:44 GMT
Mike, let's start again. What you're trying to do is kill noise. SMPS (Switched Mode Power Supplies) are the worst, but not the only, culprits. There are two distinct actions: 1. At the noise source, you're trying to stop the noise getting OUT, back into the mains and airborne. 2. At the hi-fi system, you're trying to stop the noise getting IN. Therefore, use snap chokes as follows: 1. As close to the noise source as possible. So on a Sky Box, around the mains cable right near the chassis at the back. The same on routers, base stations etc. Anything that has its own mains flying lead. So a laptop charger, same thing: on the mains side, up close to the charger block. If you have wall-warts, you can't do this. So plug them into a 4-way strip and put a choke around the cable close to the strip. 2. At the hi-fi system, use chokes around the cable close to the wall socket. For airborne interference, use another one close to the rear chassis too. The result of this will be a very quiet system for a little effort and an outlay of a few tens of Pounds. Thanks Martin Clarity for me and others that don't know ferrite chokes and application |
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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 18, 2018 11:02:22 GMT
For more clarity and the non technical like me A switched-mode power supply (SMPS) is an electronic circuit that converts power using switching devices that are turned on and off at high frequencies, and storage components such as inductors or capacitors to supply power when the switching device is in its non-conduction state. SMPS explainedIf you want a 6 way extension lead then it has to be black of course  6 Way / Gang 5m Surge Protected UK Plug Mains Extension Power Block Multiboard |
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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 18, 2018 11:11:35 GMT
On the other hand, you could just listen to some music, Mike. What I do when I'm on this forum and most of the day. Almost anything to get me more into the music is always the target |
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Post by dsjr on Mar 18, 2018 14:24:21 GMT
Martin is spot on, assuming you have any noise to start with. As far as I know there are no continuously running SMPS's in this house. If I found one I would change it and have done on just a couple of units. It's way better to "to close the stable door before the horse could bolt" Of course, all this assumes that there are SMPS's "and" they are causing interference". Dave Dave, you and the others here will have to forgive me as I come from the era when many CD players 'seemed to' spray various uhf or rf 'noises' down their signal and mains cables. I never measured it, but these clip-on ferrites helped a heck of a lot back then. I'm led to believe that modern digital audio gear is supposed to be better in this regard. You may well have measured such things, so what I say is just personal subjective experience without an objective foundation.
The other thing that convinced me was when Linn went over to the original 'brilliant' power supplies (smps?). they may have been great at 'improving' the sound potential of their source components, but the crap they seemed to spray back into the mains compared to the previous implementations was horrific and I have memories of a Lingo-brilliant-supply needing to be switched off when a Karik/Numerik was playing and vice versa - or maybe this was auto-suggestion, I don't know. It was around this time I discovered the Roxburgh 6A filter which I still use on my digital source components in addition to ferrites, but I'm not going there with that one as it opens too many cans of worms. Linn have had countless updates since those times twenty odd years ago so maybe current stuff isn't affected this way. the last issue Karik III/Numerik III did seem rather less electrically 'rude' in the systems I used them in, although I thought they sounded 'better' with one of the aforementioned filters added, but then I'm drifting again. |
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Post by DaveC on Mar 18, 2018 15:27:06 GMT
Well, I can only speak from experience having owned the first ever CD player the Sony CDP-101 on day one and the only CD available was Chariots of Fire by Vangelis ! And several Marantz SA7-7S1 and currently a Marantz SA-11S, I have never experienced this.
I do use properly screened interconnects but in any case the digital signals in a CD ought to be minuscule ?
If I bought a product that "sprayed" hash I would return it promptly. It's way better to "to close the stable door before the horse could bolt"
Regards Dave
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Post by dsjr on Mar 18, 2018 16:28:59 GMT
I was a seller of and still am a user of the Philips 5541? based chipset based machine. We only had Sony for a short while so I can't say of this range of ES players suffered the same - the 555ES had a small voltage potential on the case though, giving a slight tingle through fingertips if it wasn't signal-connected to anything, but that's obviously different. Try popular Arcam, Marantz/Philips and Mission players from the mid to late 80's.
I remember the Sony 101 being a very good machine and I'm going to stick my neck out and say it was rather less fatiguing to listen to than the early 14-bit Philips machines, including the meridian MCD. My first player was the rather nicer sounding (to me) MCD-Pro, followed a couple of years later by a 207 two box jobbie... Thing is for me, these early machines didn't 'do' air and space properly and tape hiss in the background could sound more 'grainy' than I felt it should be. The very same discs don't exhibit this on modern digital hardware I find and 'tape hiss' is smoother and more like my memories of the reel thing (sorry) as I remember .
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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 18, 2018 17:26:57 GMT
Looking around at various mains leads I see lumps on some that I guess are ferrite chokes.
There is even on on this very laptop
Are they ferrite chokes ?
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Post by MartinT on Mar 18, 2018 18:22:44 GMT
Yes.
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Post by MikeMusic on Mar 18, 2018 18:48:55 GMT
I shall dig them out and put them to use
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