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Post by MartinT on Jul 18, 2014 14:11:00 GMT
I think you should vote Yes then. If you think USB, HDMI and ethernet cables make a difference to the sound of a system, and there is no scientific explanation for how this could be the case, it must be a supernatural explanation. An interesting posit, but I think it misses the point through simplicity. There is an awful lot more to the transmission of digital information than 'just ones and zeros', especially in the time domain and more especially when the clock is integrated with the signal as with the S/PDIF format. To my ears, strange things happen between optical, co-ax and even ethernet transmission of the same data. So no, I don't believe in magic, I just think we haven't solved all the ways of reconciling what can be measured with what is heard.
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Post by lurcher on Jul 18, 2014 19:00:10 GMT
Yep, but you have worded that question so the answer will be self evident. 1 and 0 are never transmitted at the physical layer of any comms, It ends up as voltage levels changing over time, its fundamentally analogue. Now I am not saying I can point to a reason why a particular system does sound different, but I can imagine any number of reasons why even though the same 1 and 0 comes out the other end, the overall system will be different.
Simple ones
- The cable is acting like an antenna, allowing RF into the device, that RF can do all manner of things
- The cable is coupling the ground of the transmitter and receiver together, that can do things to the receiver
- The different analogue levels at the receiver require the analogue parts to act differently, putting different requirements on the power supply, that can change things.
Not saying if they happen, but they are examples of hypothesis that you seem to be unaware of that could cause a difference even though the same digital signal comes out the end.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 19:10:45 GMT
Yep, but you have worded that question so the answer will be self evident. 1 and 0 are never transmitted at the physical layer of any comms, It ends up as voltage levels changing over time, its fundamentally analogue. Now I am not saying I can point to a reason why a particular system does sound different, but I can imagine any number of reasons why even though the same 1 and 0 comes out the other end, the overall system will be different. Simple ones - The cable is acting like an antenna, allowing RF into the device, that RF can do all manner of things - The cable is coupling the ground of the transmitter and receiver together, that can do things to the receiver - The different analogue levels at the receiver require the analogue parts to act differently, putting different requirements on the power supply, that can change things. Not saying if they happen, but they are examples of hypothesis that you seem to be unaware of that could cause a difference even though the same digital signal comes out the end. You may believe that might be happening, fair enough. I don't, I think the explanation is that it's in a lot of people's financial interests to suggest that different digital cables might sound different when in fact they don't. Indeed if any of your hypotheses were true it would be quite easy to test them and to provide the evidence. Until that is done in a scientifically controlled study I'm just not "buying" it.
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Post by Tim on Jul 18, 2014 19:45:25 GMT
I don't believe in magic and have voted accordingly, but somehow the contents of my glass of single malt seem to have disappeared . . . as if by magic
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 19:48:34 GMT
I don't believe in magic and have voted accordingly, but somehow the contents of my glass of single malt seem to have disappeared . . . as if by magic LOL, which malt has magical powers this evening?
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Post by pre65 on Jul 18, 2014 19:58:35 GMT
"You may believe that might be happening, fair enough. I don't, I think the explanation is that it's in a lot of people's financial interests to suggest that different digital cables might sound different when in fact they don't. Indeed if any of your hypotheses were true it would be quite easy to test them and to provide the evidence. Until that is done in a scientifically controlled study I'm just not "buying" it. " You are entitled to your opinion however wrong you may be.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2014 20:06:46 GMT
"You may believe that might be happening, fair enough. I don't, I think the explanation is that it's in a lot of people's financial interests to suggest that different digital cables might sound different when in fact they don't. Indeed if any of your hypotheses were true it would be quite easy to test them and to provide the evidence. Until that is done in a scientifically controlled study I'm just not "buying" it. " You are entitled to your opinion however wrong you may be. That sounds like one of my lines. However, its also possible that he is right.... just for the sake of balance of course
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Post by John on Jul 18, 2014 20:08:18 GMT
I take the view that our understanding of science is developing all the time as for beliefs they are mostly a personal matter Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Arthur_C_Clarke.
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Post by Tim on Jul 18, 2014 20:09:23 GMT
LOL, which malt has magical powers this evening? 10 year Bushmills with a drop of water
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Post by walpurgis on Jul 18, 2014 21:38:22 GMT
The question is meaningless as it's not about magic. Much more likely that he's been quoted out of context, which is very poor journalism. I don't believe in magic but I know from experimentation that digital cables can sound different. I think you should vote Yes then. If you think USB, HDMI and ethernet cables make a difference to the sound of a system, and there is no scientific explanation for how this could be the case, it must be a supernatural explanation. I don't know about "USB, HDMI and ethernet" cables, but logically the same should surely apply to digital audio interconnects and these definitely affect sound quality in a very noticeable way. i.e, some make the sound crap, whilst others allow the equipment to sound excellent.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 5:59:30 GMT
Not sure if you have seen this page before, but my money is on the cable not being involved in the differences you were hearing: Testing audiophile claims and mythsNumber 10 is my favourite - can you tell when speaker cable is replaced with a coathanger? "We gathered up a 5 of our audio buddies. We took my "old" Martin Logan SL-3 (not a bad speaker for accurate noise making) and hooked them up with Monster 1000 speaker cables (decent cables according to the audio press). We also rigged up 14 gauge, oxygen free Belden stranded copper wire with a simple PVC jacket. Both were 2 meters long. They were connected to an ABX switch box allowing blind fold testing. Volume levels were set at 75 Db at 1000K Hz. A high quality recording of smooth, trio, easy listening jazz was played (Piano, drums, bass). None of us had heard this group or CD before, therefore eliminating biases. The music was played. Of the 5 blind folded, only 2 guessed correctly which was the monster cable. (I was not one of them). This was done 7 times in a row! Keeping us blind folded, my brother switched out the Belden wire (are you ready for this) with simple coat hanger wire! Unknown to me and our 12 audiophile buddies, prior to the ABX blind test, he took apart four coat hangers, reconnectd them and twisted them into a pair of speaker cables. Connections were soldered. He stashed them in a closet within the testing room so we were not privy to what he was up to. This made for a pair of 2 meter cables, the exact length of the other wires. The test was conducted. After 5 tests, none could determine which was the Monster 1000 cable or the coat hanger wire. Further, when music was played through the coat hanger wire, we were asked if what we heard sounded good to us. All agreed that what was heard sounded excellent, however, when A-B tests occured, it was impossible to determine which sounded best the majority of the time and which wire was in use. Needless to say, after the blind folds came off and we saw what my brother did, we learned he was right...most of what manufactures have to say about their products is pure hype. It seems the more they charge, the more hyped it is." If the double blind tests can't tell differences between file formats, power leads and speaker cables then I really don't think there can be a difference between digital cables. As you say, there is no logical reason why you should hear a difference in digital cables, so it must be some form of magic IMO.
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Post by John on Jul 19, 2014 6:21:10 GMT
There always seem to be this thing between those that do and those that do not hear differences and the subject soon becomes a circular debate I tend to take the view point life is short and just enjoy the music whatever is your view point
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 6:27:40 GMT
There always seem to be this thing between those that do and those that do not hear differences and the subject soon becomes a circular debate I tend to take the view point life is short and just enjoy the music whatever is your view point Quite a lot of discussion on forums are fairly circular. Plato and Aristotle laid the foundations and we have been going around and around ever since. That's not to say that the discussion isn't still interesting and sometimes illuminating though. When it comes to digital cables people really should wake up and smell the coffee, but at the end of the day its their money and they have every right to spend it how they like.
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Post by dvh on Jul 19, 2014 8:49:43 GMT
From the original article: 'What Hifi has lost all credibility'. How can they lose what they never had to begin with?
Anyway. Digital cables. There's only one way to prove to yourself whether they all sound the same or whether some are better/worse than others, and that is to blind test several pairs; that way it's your ears alone making the decision. Don't rely on a magazine with a vested interest in promoting the concept of better/worse, or a self-appointed guru telling you they can't possibly sound different, to make the decision for you. Unless you're lazy.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2014 9:28:29 GMT
From the original article: 'What Hifi has lost all credibility'. How can they lose what they never had to begin with? Anyway. Digital cables. There's only one way to prove to yourself whether they all sound the same or whether some are better/worse than others, and that is to blind test several pairs; that way it's your ears alone making the decision. Don't rely on a magazine with a vested interest in promoting the concept of better/worse, or a self-appointed guru telling you they can't possibly sound different, to make the decision for you. Unless you're lazy. I agree on your first point. Unless a reviewer is prepared to give a negative review then it's not worth the paper it's written on (e.g. Hifi Pig), and as has been shown in the blog that I linked in the OP, What Hifi just copy and paste the words from the review of one item into the review of another to save time and effort. But there's really no need to subject digital cables to a blind test. The chances of two different cables sounding different is so small as to be insignificant. The cable just transmits digital data, it either arrives safely, exactly as intended, or it doesn't. If it arrives safely then it's what the box at the receiving end does with it, and the rest of the chain of electronics that terminate at the speaker that makes a difference.
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Post by pre65 on Jul 19, 2014 9:34:59 GMT
But there's really no need to subject digital cables to a blind test. The chances of two different cables sounding different is so small as to be insignificant. The cable just transmits digital data, it either arrives safely, exactly as intended, or it doesn't. If it arrives safely then it's what the box at the receiving end does with it, and the rest of the chain of electronics that terminate at the speaker that makes a difference. I understand your scepticism. I'm old enough to remember when the same was said about speaker cables. I suspect that answers will be found before too long.
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Post by MikeMusic on Jul 19, 2014 9:44:06 GMT
I take the view that our understanding of science is developing all the time as for beliefs they are mostly a personal matter Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Arthur_C_Clarke. I was searching for an answer. John seems to have the one I was looking for ! There are things that happen I cannot quite work out. Assume that is my lack of knowledge
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