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Post by dvh on Feb 23, 2018 13:03:08 GMT
There's that. There's also an alternative view which is that Chris, John and I created this forum because we're passionate about music and high quality reproduction and we wanted to share it with like-minded individuals. Why then should we tolerate people who just want to drain all the fun out of it with their constant negativity, baiting and general unpleasantness? Life is too short. It's your forum, and I agree you shouldn't have to waste time and effort acting as referee/umpire between people with polar opposite views. I guess I was saying that those on either side, doubters and believers, need to calm down. It's not like anything much hangs on the outcome. Which reminds me of another favourite quote: 'Why are academic disputes so acrimonious?' 'Because the stakes are so low'. |
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Post by MartinT on Feb 23, 2018 13:13:37 GMT
LOL!
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Post by rfan8312 on Feb 23, 2018 13:26:49 GMT
There's that. There's also an alternative view which is that Chris, John and I created this forum because we're passionate about music and high quality reproduction and we wanted to share it with like-minded individuals. Why then should we tolerate people who just want to drain all the fun out of it with their constant negativity, baiting and general unpleasantness? Life is too short. It's your forum, and I agree you shouldn't have to waste time and effort acting as referee/umpire between people with polar opposite views. I guess I was saying that those on either side, doubters and believers, need to calm down. It's not like anything much hangs on the outcome. Which reminds me of another favourite quote: 'Why are academic disputes so acrimonious?' 'Because the stakes are so low'. Exactly. Calm down. Monitoring peoples opinions. "Woah...woah...woah..he is getting dangerously close to displeasing me". |
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Post by ChrisB on Feb 23, 2018 13:26:54 GMT
br] If you want to promote a product that most people find hard to take serious be more subtle. Carry on... Let's get one thing absolutely, completely crystal clear right here and now shall we Alan? No-one is promoting a product here. People are discussing their own experiences ( or lack of them). Any inference that people are behaving in an underhand fashion is not acceptable here. |
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Post by stanleyb on Feb 23, 2018 13:58:14 GMT
I am a fuse doubter too Wonky. Doesn't seem possible a fuse could make the difference I hear. But I'll try to live with it  Had I not worked in audio repair centers for a very long time, I would have agreed with you. But in those years of fixing audio equipment I came across quite a few of fuses related issues that caused me to change my mind. I remember a customer having his amp serviced as a routine measure, and then coming back to say that it sounded worse than before. I spent quite some days listening to it, but could not hear a difference. Then I took it to the house of the customer, where I could hear a difference. And after checking the worksheet of what was replaced, if anything, it turned out to be the fuse. That had been changed from a slow blow to a fast blow type. Swapping it over solved the problem, but till today I have no concrete technical reason to explain that. |
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Post by MartinT on Feb 23, 2018 14:03:51 GMT
it turned out to be the fuse. That had been changed from a slow blow to a fast blow type. Swapping it over solved the problem, but till today I have no concrete technical reason to explain that. Thank you, Stan. Coming from you, that's somewhat of a vindication that fuses can affect the sound despite our not having a good reason for it. My only thought process would be that the fast-blo type fuse has a more non-linear current/resistance curve than the slo-blo one. Just a guess, though. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 14:26:11 GMT
I have no connection to Stan: Never met him and not bought a single thing from him. My only experience of his kit was a used Caiman 2 which was very good but not "bling" enough for a magpie like me. I therefore have no ulterior motive for saying thiis, but Stan never bumps his products, never strokes his ego (or seeks others to do it), usually adds significant value via his posts and keeps an open mind in his approach. We're lucky to have him and I didn't want it to go unsaid.
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Post by stanleyb on Feb 23, 2018 14:43:42 GMT
I have no connection to Stan: Never met him and not bought a single thing from him. My only experience of his kit was a used Caiman 2 which was very good but not "bling" enough for a magpie like me. I therefore have no ulterior motive for saying thiis, but Stan never bumps his products, never strokes his ego (or seeks others to do it), usually adds significant value via his posts and keeps an open mind in his approach. We're lucky to have him and I didn't want it to go unsaid. Thanks for the heads up, but I have no idea why I am even mentioned in this thread directly or indirectly. I only really engage in the Chat and Photography section. Can't remember the last time I posted anything in the audio related section, unless it was to answer a question from someone, or need some input from forum members. No doubt some people are probably of the opinion that I started the KFC thread in order to promote alternatives like McDonalds or Burger King, which is what started this all off in the first place. |
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Post by MikeMusic on Feb 23, 2018 15:49:23 GMT
I am a fuse doubter too Wonky. Doesn't seem possible a fuse could make the difference I hear. But I'll try to live with it Had I not worked in audio repair centers for a very long time, I would have agreed with you. But in those years of fixing audio equipment I came across quite a few of fuses related issues that caused me to change my mind. I remember a customer having his amp serviced as a routine measure, and then coming back to say that it sounded worse than before. I spent quite some days listening to it, but could not hear a difference. Then I took it to the house of the customer, where I could hear a difference. And after checking the worksheet of what was replaced, if anything, it turned out to be the fuse. That had been changed from a slow blow to a fast blow type. Swapping it over solved the problem, but till today I have no concrete technical reason to explain that. Amazing. Thanks for that Stan |
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Post by julesd68 on Feb 23, 2018 16:28:20 GMT
That is why I would like someone independent to perform a blind test on a group of believers and non believers to see if the difference can be detected and if so, is it better? Surely if they work, it will be a unanimous decision? Not a chance would it be unanimous in my opinion - it's the same story with mains cables, some will detect a difference some won't hear a difference at all ... |
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Post by Tim on Feb 23, 2018 16:37:21 GMT
. . . and some don't care  Oops, not supposed to be commenting here, doh! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2018 21:50:33 GMT
That is why I would like someone independent to perform a blind test on a group of believers and non believers to see if the difference can be detected and if so, is it better? Surely if they work, it will be a unanimous decision? Not a chance would it be unanimous in my opinion - it's the same story with mains cables, some will detect a difference some won't hear a difference at all ... I think you are correct. If you can't hear it, then it will either be your hearing is not good enough, your system is not revealing enough, your acoustic memory is not good enough or you really can't be arsed to listen for the difference and are more content in just listening to the music. |
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Post by AlanS on Feb 23, 2018 23:42:30 GMT
There is piece of music I have liked for years, A Google revealed a dozen versions all YouTubes. The joy was in the music not the quality. Like a life long friend you forgive their shortcomings. Thoughts of fuses and cables et al never further from my mind.
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Post by MikeMusic on Feb 24, 2018 10:40:45 GMT
W. Edwards Deming broadly applied
How can we do this better
to business.
Japan took note after WW2 from the rubble as did some very successful companies.
Applied to the sound from a system this is naturally never ending. A lot of us are on the journey
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2018 10:49:24 GMT
W. Edwards Deming broadly applied How can we do this better to business. Japan took note after WW2 from the rubble as did some very successful companies. Applied to the sound from a system this is naturally never ending. A lot of us are on the journey Or have already got off the train having reached a point where no massive increase in performance can be achieved without a huge outlay so no longer care about the tweaks. |
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Post by MikeMusic on Feb 24, 2018 15:34:48 GMT
W. Edwards Deming broadly applied How can we do this better to business. Japan took note after WW2 from the rubble as did some very successful companies. Applied to the sound from a system this is naturally never ending. A lot of us are on the journey Or have already got off the train having reached a point where no massive increase in performance can be achieved without a huge outlay so no longer care about the tweaks. I thought the same some years ago. Any change would only be incremental and could cost a lot of dough. A couple of years ago I changed my mind. "Huge outlay" needs to be quantified of course : RDC or Electric Beach supports are in the £20-30 bracket. Improvements for almost any system. A system of the high hundreds or low thousands will benefit from an unswitched mains socket. Best I have heard is the Coherent £100. Granite placemats on kit, £10-20 for a set Mains cables from £15-20 to as much as you want to pay There are others that seem to be a lot less than a huge outlay |
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Post by julesd68 on Feb 24, 2018 15:53:39 GMT
I wonder how many systems in which people have spent £1000's on cabling, tweaks, accessories, would have been better served by putting that money towards improving any of their sources, amps or speakers ...
I bet there are plenty.
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Post by MikeMusic on Feb 24, 2018 16:28:55 GMT
£1000s on accessories is the wrong balance. Unless they spent tens of thousands on the system of course !
10% for the bits is a good rule to start with. Must estimate my system accurately. Guess 20%
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Post by MartinT on Feb 24, 2018 17:18:41 GMT
It's proportional. The £130 I spent on a fuse for my £5k power amp, for the sound quality improvement, is peanuts. Ditto my power cable, interconnect, speaker cable. Spending similar on a £100 NAD amplifier would not be a good use of funds.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2018 17:30:20 GMT
It's not always about investing money. There's also the time investment and the space investment. The number of systems you see with speakers four feet apart, hard against the wall.(one usually in a corner), plus a load of kit lumped on top of each other with no isolation and a rats nest of cables is staggering.
Placing your speakers in a way can perform is probably the single most important thing you can do. Then there's spacing your gear and cabling out, and isolating anything that's sensitive. Most isolation and cabling I use has either been bought used or made by me. I've invested a lot of time listening, choosing and trying, I've also made sure that the system sits where it can work.
For my part, if I wasn't willing to make these investments, I wouldn't be investing money in tweaks OR more expensive kit.
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