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Post by Chris on Mar 12, 2018 18:49:40 GMT
I'd have to hear a good valve amp first before I moved on. I really like the Audio Note designs and I'd really,really like a custom build but there would have to be a significant difference over what I now have. Instead of upgrading ask about and get a listen to different valves in different circuits - if you are ever near Edinburgh you are welcome to come listen to my EL34s and KT88/6550s. There's so many variations that it is a really personal thing. Add in what works with your other kit and in your own house.
If you like it don't tweak it. Maybe tube roll it a wee bit though!
Glad to hear you're sorted. Enjoy.
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Bonky
Rank: Trio
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Post by Bonky on Mar 12, 2018 19:41:00 GMT
Thanks Chris,
I'm not going to modify the KEL84 in any way - if ever- for some time, but I always like to keep an open door - just in case something 'better' comes along.
R
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Post by Greg on Mar 14, 2018 0:32:32 GMT
you’ve had good advise from Chris and Philip (pre65) and I endorse what they have said.
Here are a few extra observations. You have gone for the XL kit so this covers most of the basic upgrades anyway although I would consider at some point trying instead of the Soniq’s Polypropylene coupling caps provided, try the basic kit orange drop caps as many have after loads of listening, returned to settle on these in preference.
A bit of history here. The WD KeL84 has in various forms been around for many years. It was one of the first World Audio Design (WAD) kits. WAD was originally a sister company to Hi-Fi World magazine. After several temporary ownerships the company ended up with Peter Comeau who renamed it World Designs (WD), now owned by Matthew Snell, who no doubt you have been conversing with.
What Peter did with the KeL84 and subsequently adopted by Matthew was to scan all the old WAD forum information on upgrading this amp and then incorporate any significant basics into the XL (latest) kit.
I’m not sure if any of the detailed upgrade/tweaking information from the original WAD Forum is still available. Probably not, although if you buy the Platinum CD from WD which holds past HFW DIY Suppliments, there will be articles there that will inform on upgrading and any alternative circuits.
IMHO, there is probably not much worth bothering with beyond your XL version. Maybe introducing a few bi-pass caps in critical (PSU) positions and then some non-inductive resistors. Same value. Just swap out. From experience, boutique components certainly do have their place in a quality build. However, mostly it is about what components work well together. So, once you move on beyond the basic good advise offered and are ready to upgrade further, my advice after many years of use of several WAD/WD kits (including KeL84) is, Welwyn, Mills and Kewame resistors work very well in this kit with naked foil Vishay versions used in critical signal line applications. Cap wise you could source the very lowest ESR versions for the PSU section. Amplifier wise, Black Gates are now almost unobtainable, but I believe Silmics are a reasonable substitute. You don’t have to stick with the Soniqs. Mundorf offer some fine (my preference) alternatives. Obviously this is all fine detail stuff.
Earlier in this thread I stated that I do think valve amps had reached their zenith. This is because there are no new circuits, just revamps of old circuits, in some cases being rediscoveries, but inherently, IMHO, often sounding a little coloured. Furthermore, as soon as your valve amp is switched on, it starts a performance degenerative process. Particulrly, with regular use, after a couple of years, you’ll need to replace your final stage output valves. My last valve amp was a WAD clone 300B push pull so I needed to factor in £400 or there abouts every two years for continued maintenance. Expensive valves would be very much more, (yes, every two years). I got fed up with that, especially as I thought the sound was coloured and, in particular, I got fed up with the inability to control bass really well. I am now using computer orientated amplification and I really can’t fault the listening experience. A very balanced sound which causes me to simply engross in the music and not concentrate on listening to the system. Now such SS type amplification may gradually degenerate in performance, but it is clearly not as obvious as with valves, so I’ll happily stick with what I now have.
Having said all that, in the immediate moment, KeL84 is a fantastic (giant slayer) amp and you should have a great deal of fun with it. I and many of my friends did. It shouldn’t be any different for you.
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Bonky
Rank: Trio
Posts: 156
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Post by Bonky on Mar 14, 2018 8:42:37 GMT
Hi Greg,
Very many thanks for that full answer. I'll report back when I've made it and it has 'burned-in'.
Matthew (Snell) is a very nice person to deal with and I can recommend him and his company based on my limited experience.
The 2 year cycle of valve replacement is obviously a disadvantage - but one that I was aware of. Your £400 'bill' every two years is/was a bit of an eye-opener (obviously mine would be less).
It will be interesting to see how the KEL compares with my DADA-modded Quad 306 (and 99).
BW
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Post by John on Mar 14, 2018 9:00:15 GMT
The main reason I moved away from my Glowmaster was having to re-valve it every year I just could not justify the costs
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2018 17:15:55 GMT
Was heater or cathode degradation ?
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Bonky
Rank: Trio
Posts: 156
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Post by Bonky on Mar 25, 2018 16:57:28 GMT
I am surprised that no-one has mentioned the Latest Primaluna amps. The amplification section may be old hat to some but the complementary circuitry seems,to my naive eyes, to be very advanced (auto bias etc).
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Post by pre65 on Mar 25, 2018 17:07:32 GMT
I'm not familiar with that brand, but (to me) cathode bias, which is auto bias, is far more common in valve amplifiers.
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Post by dsjr on Mar 25, 2018 18:22:38 GMT
Very high output impedance on some models according to Stereophile - and what that does to conventional two way speakers with crossovers has to be seen to be believed... Not sure I want fixed, built in unadjustable tone controls though...
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Post by Chris on Mar 25, 2018 18:49:59 GMT
Yeah I didn't think auto bias was a big thing.
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Bonky
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Post by Bonky on Mar 25, 2018 20:05:26 GMT
Very high output impedance on some models according to Stereophile - and what that does to conventional two way speakers with crossovers has to be seen to be believed... Not sure I want fixed, built in unadjustable tone controls though... Hi, thanks, but please could you explain a little more re the impedance issues?
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Post by dsjr on Mar 25, 2018 21:46:55 GMT
Have a look on the Stereophile valve amp reviews for confirmation and possible explanation.
An amp with a high output impedance trying to drive a typical modern 6 - 8 ohm passive speaker with crossover network will apparently, mess with the crossover frequencies and will also change the response of the speaker from top to bottom. Prima Luna seem to be the worst I've seen so far and the response discrepancy is a good few db one way or the other from a nominal 'flat' response which most solid state amps can achieve to inaudible limits. This wayward response shift WILL be clearly audible as though you've put a graphic equaliser in the signal path and had a twiddle with the controls.
Having seemingly done a hatchet job on this amp make, there are very many Harbeth owners in Europe and the far east (one of the worst possible speaker matches in my opinion for this amp) who lovingly use the two maker's products together and rave about it all over Facebook. So that puts HiFi sensibilities back in their box. Tony L of PFM fame tried to use one of these amps with a pair of SHL5's (pre Plus) and sent the speakers back in disgust due to uncontrolled bass boom, so be warned. Other speakers may not be as severely affected.
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Post by ant on Mar 25, 2018 22:15:40 GMT
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Bonky
Rank: Trio
Posts: 156
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Post by Bonky on Mar 26, 2018 7:13:47 GMT
Mmmm...interesting. Thanks.
I have just built the WD KEL 84 so will be interested in how it sounds with my Living Voice speakers.
The owner of LV always reckoned that they sounded better with valve amps (and the Sugden A21).
I have seen a 2nd hand PrimaLuna for sale and was just contemplating a comparison.
Thanks again.
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Post by julesd68 on Mar 26, 2018 12:47:03 GMT
Prima Luna amps seem to be very popular nowadays - not that this is a recommendation in itself of course but the owners I have read about appear very enthusiastic about them.
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Bonky
Rank: Trio
Posts: 156
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Post by Bonky on Mar 26, 2018 17:33:36 GMT
LV still recommend the Sugden.
They say that good though the PrimaLuna may be it could sound a bit flabby in the bass and muddied in complex passages...
...unless anyone knows diffferent(ly) of course ...
Thanks
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Post by Chris on Mar 26, 2018 20:53:00 GMT
The Sugden 21se is supposed to be the one to go for
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Post by Greg on Mar 26, 2018 21:52:20 GMT
I listened to KeL84 with LV several years ago and the combination sounded very good.
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Bonky
Rank: Trio
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Post by Bonky on Mar 26, 2018 22:08:44 GMT
Thanks Greg; sounds promising then...
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