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Post by MartinT on Jun 15, 2014 19:57:03 GMT
I have been playing with a variety of footers of late and discovered, along with Mike, just how very differently various components in the system respond to them. I already have a very good sprung system rack so you might wonder why I would need anything else. Well, it's almost by accident that I found out just how much more isolation you can achieve.
I bought a Technics direct drive turntable a number of years ago, which came with their idea of isolation feet. The Technics is a solid plinth design, with no inherent suspension and relies solely on the feet for isolation from feedback, footfalls, sub-bass vibrations etc. Frankly, they are rubbish! I quickly replaced them with Foculpods, which at least cleaned up the bass performance. Then I replaced them with Isonoes, which are far and away the best single isolation product I know and cleaned and tightened the sound throughout the frequency range. Then, on a trial-or-return, I tried Techniboots over the Isonoes. Even better isolation, even finer and more detailed sound!
A second example would be my Ayre SACD player, previously resting on Aurios MIB bearings (and on the same system rack), well regarded by audiophiles and quite expensive. I substituted them for a set of three inexpensive Deflex SuperPods and the lift in sound quality, clarity and extra depth to the soundstage was quite noticeable and very pleasing. They are distributed two on the left and one on the right as the Ayre is very left-heavy due to where the transformers are placed.
Thirdly, putting four tiny RDC 5 Cones under the metal feet of my Aurorasound VIDA phono preamp made a small but noticeable change in the presence area, in particular electric guitar, bringing it more forward in the soundstage.
Finally, I was almost dumbfounded recently to hear the effect of three original Stillpoints/Cups placed under Mike’s Pass Labs preamp, the same model as mine. Everything improved: clarity, bass power, dynamics. It was almost like an upgrade to the next model in the product range.
The search continues. As those Stillpoints are unobtainium I am trying out some bigger RDC cones to see if they do a similar job. The jury is out. The lesson here is that there is probably not a single solution out there for all components, you need to try them and see whether isolation or 'mechanical grounding' works best for that component, which in turn depends on the surface they're on.
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lasse
Rank: Soloist
If it sounds good,,,it is good..!!
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Post by lasse on Jun 16, 2014 15:24:44 GMT
Interesting, I have tried all foots from Finite-element and Stillpoints with good results. My newest experience is Entreqs Lynx-feet, with a new point of view..No metal.. -My next trying will be to test fetts, racks with no metal at all + do some earth-grounding towards Entreqs ground-box, Silver Tellus.
Also I have found that working with brands as a system is very effective, Finite-Elementes Master Reference rack with there frets, Cerabase and Cerapuc...Marvelous results..
Stillpoints is actually earthing there racks, and there new feets are quite a lot better, or much better then those on picture above, but to a cost off course...
Black Diamond Racings new products to have under cones/spikes are also very effective and quite cheep in this discussion..like 30 pounds per each..
My favorites so far is Entreqs Lynx-feet...I have compared them to HRT-platforms among these products above,,,,Not the most sexiest design perhaps, but the perform..!! /L
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lasse
Rank: Soloist
If it sounds good,,,it is good..!!
Posts: 18
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Post by lasse on Jun 16, 2014 15:26:32 GMT
Sorry for my bad english../L
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Post by MartinT on Jun 16, 2014 15:32:48 GMT
Thank you, Lasse. It was the old Stillpoints that we had available to try. I have heard of Black Diamond Racing, will look them up.
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Post by MartinT on Jun 16, 2014 18:11:44 GMT
Ok, tonight I distributed some more RDC cones and, cumulatively, they're having a nice effect. My test track Ry Cooder - Bop 'til You Drop is playing with more fine detail and the drum and cymbal work are brought further forward in the mix. All are mounted with the base on the underside of the component, point down.
RDC1 cones (large): three each under Pass preamp and Pass power supply RDC5 cones (small): four under VIDA phono amp, three under VIDA power supply RDC3 cones (giant): three under P10 regenerator
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Post by MikeMusic on Jun 17, 2014 15:23:19 GMT
More detail as promised elsewhere
Testing Wooden Cones (the MCRU variety as taller than Russ Andrews), Pods, Stillpoints.
Test track with all footers (except Technics) removed so all kit sitting directly with own feet on glass shelves on Mana glass and steel racks.
Starting at the front end and using 3 footers on the underside of the frame of the kit. VIDA Phono Pre Amp Wooden cones - Yes definite improvement Focul Pods - another improvement (Old version) Stillpoints on their own - another improvement Stillpoints with Mini Risers - audible improvement, maybe the smallest Stillpoints with Inverse Risers - small audible improvement, just noticeable
Stillpoints left in place under the VIDA
VIDA PSU. Surely won't make a difference ? Wooden Cones - yes. Is this barmy or what ? Polipods, the small ones as the feet under the PSU are small - another improvement. I assume the Stillpoints will be another improvement, Pods left under the VIDA
Pass Labs Pre Amp Wooden Cones - improvement Focul Pods - another improvement. I previously tested Stillpoints and I know they work very well under the Pass
** Pass Labs Pre Amp PSU I had previously tested Wooden Cones and they improved as I expected Focul Pods - another improvement.
How much further can this go ?
Chord Power Amp Superpods - small improvement ** I expected this to have a much bigger improvment, but this is the least affected by supports. Coudl it be something in the design ?
Conclusions : This is mad. Expensive hifi made to sound better with cheap replacement feet. The Cones are the cheapest and perhaps the best value. Cons: Placed under kit they reduce friction so you can gently nudge your expensive hifi onto the floor. Pods come in 3 sizes, Poli, Focul and Super. Great value Stillpoints with or without risers are the best, beginning to get expensive ** compared to the Cones and Pods you could question the VFM Latest versions are eye wateringly expensive.
Other points : Different heights can work with you and against. Taller footers raise the kit above its own built in feet, but can raise your kit on the shelf too high, or maybe not even fit in the space available Only (!) tried footers in 3s May be different results using 4 either under the frame or under the existing kit feet. If you don't believe me, and I hardly do ! you can try out wooden cones or smaller pods
Any are worth having as they make more music
** I have yet to try swapping the Stillpoints around to see which box benefits most. Previously the Pass was better than the Isis
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Post by MartinT on Jun 17, 2014 16:04:26 GMT
I'm going to try replacing the four RDC3 cones under the VIDA's feet with three larger RDC1s.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2014 14:52:31 GMT
Think about what is happening when you use these devices, what method are they employing? Are they energy conversion, dissipation or an absorber of certain vibration frequencies?
Also think how the unit is constructed, what type of vibration are you modifying, is it the case work, microphany, transformer induced or ground borne interference?
All of the devices have an effect, the question is why it works and why do some systems benefit more than others and some make virtually no difference.
The answer lies within a seismometer, the surface the equipment is resting on and the vibration control characteristics of the device being employed, the volume the system is playing at to has a bearing as well.
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Post by MartinT on Jun 20, 2014 6:33:57 GMT
See also this video for further information on the subject.
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Post by MikeMusic on Jun 21, 2014 10:59:40 GMT
Think about what is happening when you use these devices, what method are they employing? Are they energy conversion, dissipation or an absorber of certain vibration frequencies? Also think how the unit is constructed, what type of vibration are you modifying, is it the case work, microphany, transformer induced or ground borne interference? All of the devices have an effect, the question is why it works and why do some systems benefit more than others and some make virtually no difference. The answer lies within a seismometer, the surface the equipment is resting on and the vibration control characteristics of the device being employed, the volume the system is playing at to has a bearing as well. Thanks Tony. More gaps in my knowledge filled in Seismometer. Hmm not available like DB meters and I assume big money Are they lots of dough ?
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Post by MartinT on Jun 21, 2014 12:06:33 GMT
You did it again, Mike: replied inside the quote!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2014 13:26:49 GMT
A seismometer is usually used for measuring ground movement amplitudes , however in controlled environments they can measure quite small shifts in vibrational constants in other applications. They are complex and specialized units usually found in Universities, schools and large companies who research possible oil and gas deposits, Volcanic activity etc. You can get this app for an I-phone, while not as we say as accurate as the real thing, it does give a fair approximation as to what specific frequencies maybe having and effect on your system. itunes.apple.com/gb/app/seismometer/id288966259?mt=8Think that you own system is sort of defeating itself, an audio system generates sound pressure waves whilst making music these waves radiate around the room interacting on everything within that room including your audio system. Also the equipment itself can generate various forms of micropany (micro vibrations cause within the circuit boards as you pass a current / voltage through the various resistors / capacitors /inductors, plus transformers, mechanisms. All have their own vibrational constant and this has an accumulative effect. Plus factor into the mix the equipment casework, its construction, material used, thickness, assembly technique, how the circuit boards are mounted into the chassis. Some of the high end equipment also employs circuit board isolation technology to help reduce microphany, the way the sockets are mounted to the chassis, the length of internal wiring, routing of such wire. How to isolate the more EMI prone components form the more sensitive areas of the electronics, clocks, PFGA's, regulators and voltage references etc. The list goes on, however look at your own equipment, and understand the criteria as to why it responds to various isolation devices. Above all have fun.
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Post by MikeMusic on Jun 21, 2014 15:11:13 GMT
You did it again, Mike: replied inside the quote!! Ok this is inside This is outside Can't be sure but I don't think he line is always there I will remember and check So am I dangerous or potentially normal ?
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Post by MikeMusic on Jun 21, 2014 15:15:24 GMT
Great Thanks Tony you have underlined and fleshed out what Max was talking about. I'm beginning to understand. What a dogs dinner
That app looks useful. I may yet have to buy a mobile phone Oh, hang on could that be used with a PC, Netbook, iPad or similar ?
Martin: One for you to load and test on one of yours ?
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Post by The Brookmeister on Jun 21, 2014 15:16:08 GMT
Who can be arsed quite honestly? lol
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Post by MikeMusic on Jun 21, 2014 15:25:40 GMT
Me, if it improves the sound
'Course finding you have it and then getting rid of it......
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2014 16:13:33 GMT
Dave
I know a few companies that actively peruse this avenue of testing products to actually determine why and how their products work or if they need to spend more time in R & D.
A few years ago I was privy to some of these tests in operation, you would be surprised at the amount of vibration energy generated by a circuit board being used.
Does this effect the sound in any way?, another snake oil question?, evil dealers trying to prise your hard earned cash from your account.
Can you make do with a couple of bits of Sorberthane, an old inner tube and bit of mdf etc.
Each individual has their own answers so their own solutions.
Personally I use three forms of vibration control as to date I have not found one that manages to encompass all issues.
However there are other folk who strongly believe it's all physio-acoustic and cooked up by some cash rich Devil influenced Genie who put a spell over the poor unsuspecting normal Hifi loving people of the world to make them part with their cash.
The truth is more akin to what individual people actually hear for themselves, try giving yourself a hearing test on your own system.
Select a couple of test tones say 250Hz, 2Khz, 4Khz, 8khz, 10Khz, 12Khz, 15Khz and 18Khz, select a suitable volume level say 85-88dB and see how far your own hearing extends.
Some people are insistent on chasing the sonic Rainbow, (most box swappers) however their will be a tipping point for everyone where equipment performance bears very little bearing on what you actually perceive you are listening too.
Why try to find the last micro gram of detail when you sacrifice musicality?, better to concentrate on the things that you can here and matter to you, that chase those small things that will drive you and your bank account to despair.
That said a well sorted system, both with dedicated mains spurs, cabling (which ever takes your fancy, equipment and speaker isolation will reap rewards and get you closer to ending the saga of the sonic dragon
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Post by MartinT on Jun 21, 2014 17:03:49 GMT
I don't have any Apple products but all it needs is a phone or tablet with the correct sensor (which rules out PCs and netbooks). I dare say there is an app for my Windows Phone or Surface so I'll have a look. Fascinating subject, especially if I can see visually in measurement what I can hear.
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Post by MartinT on Jun 21, 2014 17:13:29 GMT
Got one - Seismograph for Windows Phone. Thanks for the pointer, Tony, I'm going to have a bit of fun this week.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2014 17:27:22 GMT
The Chord case work will surprise you on how mechanically 'noisy' it is, hence my suggestion of loosing the feet and going straight for the casework coupling / decoupling.
You can get the Chord amps to sound pretty passable after judicious use of isolation and smps EMI absorption.
Don't bite me head off until you have tried it for yourself I suspect you maybe pleasantly surpised
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