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Post by pinkie on Jan 27, 2018 16:40:51 GMT
I have explained exactly why I needed a DC blocker then and no longer need one now. You explained why you fitted a DC blocker You explained that you had DC on your mains then, but don't have it now You measured it then, but haven't measured it now DC on mains is not constant. It is caused by devices being used and fluctuates (sometimes within the space of a few AC cycles). It is impossible to know at any one time that you have DC offset, or don't or how much, unless you measure it . (hearing a buzzing toroidal counts as a measurement of sorts) Measuring DC on mains is not "normal" or easy. You have 2 problems. Separating the AC and DC , and meter range. Ideally you need a meter which can show both simultaneously and auto-range the sensitivity The AC may be 240v and so the sensitivity would be 700v The DC is likely to be a few tens of millivolts. Maybe a couple of hundred. If your DC meter was set to 700v it would explain a reading of 1v - but that is noise (error caused by using the wrong sensitivity) If your electrician measured it using an appropriate sensitivity he would almost certainly have quoted a value in millivolts. A value of exactly 1000 would be surprising. But as I said - the situation will change from hour to hour and minute to minute, so one reading, even if completely accurate is of no value. You fitted a box and it changed what you heard then. I accept that. You no longer hear a difference when you fit the box now. I accept that. Exactly how do you know the differences are due to changes in the DC offset present on your mains?
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Post by MartinT on Jan 27, 2018 17:07:18 GMT
Keep on going, Richard, until you bore the pants off everyone here.
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Post by Slinger on Jan 27, 2018 17:10:51 GMT
F*ck me! It was bad enough and boring enough when this thread was actually sticking to the topic.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2018 17:24:43 GMT
F*ck me! It was bad enough and boring enough when this thread was actually sticking to the topic. I took all my fuses out, and the system had such an inky black background, it was awesome. The trouble is, the music never started.
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Post by Tim on Jan 27, 2018 17:25:49 GMT
F*ck me! It was bad enough and boring enough when this thread was actually sticking to the topic. Oh I don't know Paul, it's all rather entertaining - better than blowing one eh?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2018 17:31:44 GMT
So far I've been too lazy to even try the gold plated copper bar I have that replaces the fuse. I just don't listen that critically any more.
I don't make any assumptions though, as I don't believe we can ever perceive sound "objectively". That's before we even start with different mains, cables and kit. I'd not be at all surprised if some people found the SR fuses to sound "better" than no fuse at all. I also wouldn't be at all surprised if others heard no diffence between standard fuse, no fuse and SR fuse. In their own respective worlds, they would both be right.
I'd also only care what I heard and whether it made me feel better than sacrificing the amount of dosh I'd paid.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 27, 2018 17:32:17 GMT
I took all my fuses out, and the system had such an inky black background, it was awesome. I knew there was some advantage to doing away with them!
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Post by Greg on Jan 28, 2018 4:10:22 GMT
All interesting stuff. Regarding audiofool fuses I will always be a sceptic. Never the less, I do acknowledge that different fuses make a difference. A while back when I was using World Audio Design kit I built myself, once the amplifier had been proved to be absolutely safe, I and some others introduced an internal amp mains fuse of a higher value, such as moving from the recommended 1.6A fuse to something like a 3.6 or even a 5A option. I went 5A. What I and others found was that the higher rated fuses in the amplifier caused the sound performance to become more solid, authoratitive, filling out the sound stage better. Overall, the sound had more slam in the right sort of way. All the fuses used were bog standard slow blow versions readily available from RS, Farnell and Maplins. I have moved on from when I tried this, but my experience really does beg the question of whether no fuse and a bar or soldered link would sound even better. I have read that if your system is fed from an individual radial spur directly from your RCD consumer unit, none of your equipment down the line requires any mains plug fuses. They are apparently redundant. If that is true and if my findings are correct, surely fitting a soldered wire link or a copper bar across the plug fuse fittings is the way to go? Alternatively, use 15A round pin fuseless plugs and sockets. That’ll stop the Mrs plugging in the vacuum cleaner! Whoops, forgot, I do the vacuuming. Personally I’ve not tried any of this but I will be exploring the possibility further particularly as my system is fed with an over spec’d radial supply.
Currently I use a balanced mains supply. At certain times of the day the mains became audibly noisy and measurable. Yes, I measured it, Richard. I introduced a DC blocking circuit which sorted out the noise and it’s presence did not impact on sound quality.
It seems to me that the best option here is to start with education. Learn the facts. Then you know what to do. I have little doubt that Martin has experienced an improvement to sound after fitting these blue fuses. I question whether actually, considering his set up he could make even better gains by doing things a bit differently along the lines I have suggested. Finally, if you read the foo on the website for those audiofool fuses, how can any intelligent person conclude it is reality? Far to much pseudo science bullshit IMHO.
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Post by John on Jan 28, 2018 7:03:49 GMT
Good post Greg you make some interesting points
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Post by Tim on Jan 28, 2018 9:03:32 GMT
I had my own flat in the 90s so could do what I wanted to it. Whilst doing a complete re-wire I put a new consumer unit in and a radial circuit to my all Mission Hi-Fi and used 3 core twin and earth for all the mains cables. Cost me peanuts as I did it myself (used to be an electrician in the RN), the improvement was clear and I was rather pleased with myself. I didn't need to dig any Quantum Tunnels or spend the price of a family holiday on phoo.
Each to their own I guess, but to me music isn't a hobby and I don't like wasting money or paying money to people who are taking the piss or doing very little for it, no matter how much of it I have to fritter away. Not meant to be a slight on anyone, just my viewpoint.
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Post by dsjr on Jan 28, 2018 10:04:45 GMT
Looking back to the dark ages of the 80's when Linn, Naim and 'The Flat Response magazine' had an influence, I remember extensive recommendations for radial spurs and FUSELESS FIFTEEN AMP ROUND PIN MAINS PLUGS (s'cuse the shouting) which didn't have fuses. Like a lot of domestic stuff, Naim amps seemed sensitive to this stuff and we either imagined or felt that the differences were worth the investment of employing a sparky to do the job properly. Martin, you've already done this, so switching to fuseless 15A mains plugs and sockets would only be doing it the way well trod thirty years ago... I think the gear you use with nice shiny metal boxes is legally fused and you use fancy mains cables anyway which probably have current ratings far higher than a plug-top fuse, so no need for a fuse to 'protect' the flex here.
Just remembering how we used to do it in past times...
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Post by sq225917 on Jan 28, 2018 11:04:03 GMT
I'll ignore Greg's audio opinion because he's likely deaf and using a shit system, based on Martin's treatment of Pinkie ;-)
However he has opened up an entirely new world of more efficient vacuuming for me, so thanks for that Greg...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2018 11:48:26 GMT
All interesting stuff. Regarding audiofool fuses I will always be a sceptic. Never the less, I do acknowledge that different fuses make a difference. A while back when I was using World Audio Design kit I built myself, once the amplifier had been proved to be absolutely safe, I and some others introduced an internal amp mains fuse of a higher value, such as moving from the recommended 1.6A fuse to something like a 3.6 or even a 5A option. I went 5A. What I and others found was that the higher rated fuses in the amplifier caused the sound performance to become more solid, authoratitive, filling out the sound stage better. Overall, the sound had more slam in the right sort of way. All the fuses used were bog standard slow blow versions readily available from RS, Farnell and Maplins. I have moved on from when I tried this, but my experience really does beg the question of whether no fuse and a bar or soldered link would sound even better. I have read that if your system is fed from an individual radial spur directly from your RCD consumer unit, none of your equipment down the line requires any mains plug fuses. They are apparently redundant. If that is true and if my findings are correct, surely fitting a soldered wire link or a copper bar across the plug fuse fittings is the way to go? Alternatively, use 15A round pin fuseless plugs and sockets. That’ll stop the Mrs plugging in the vacuum cleaner! Whoops, forgot, I do the vacuuming. Personally I’ve not tried any of this but I will be exploring the possibility further particularly as my system is fed with an over spec’d radial supply. Currently I use a balanced mains supply. At certain times of the day the mains became audibly noisy and measurable. Yes, I measured it, Richard. I introduced a DC blocking circuit which sorted out the noise and it’s presence did not impact on sound quality. It seems to me that the best option here is to start with education. Learn the facts. Then you know what to do. I have little doubt that Martin has experienced an improvement to sound after fitting these blue fuses. I question whether actually, considering his set up he could make even better gains by doing things a bit differently along the lines I have suggested. Finally, if you read the foo on the website for those audiofool fuses, how can any intelligent person conclude it is reality? Far to much pseudo science bullshit IMHO. I would go along with this as I found slight improvement in changing 5A for 13A fuse on a CD player. Likely because the link is thicker wire for a higher rating. This does not explain perceived improvements swapping standard 13A for 13A audiofool designs. When people change things that cost a lot they like to convince themselves there is a significant change. I think the psychology in this is worth a separate discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2018 11:50:13 GMT
This is getting interesting now. I am going to pull up a comfy chair.
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Post by MikeMusic on Jan 28, 2018 12:12:51 GMT
I have the convenience of the boss as a blind tester.
She has no idea what I'm doing most of the time and cares little. She does like the sound to be as good as it can be.
"The first (or second, depending) was better/much better"
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Post by MartinT on Jan 28, 2018 12:29:34 GMT
I have little doubt that Martin has experienced an improvement to sound after fitting these blue fuses. I question whether actually, considering his set up he could make even better gains by doing things a bit differently along the lines I have suggested. I understand, Greg, and there seems to be an awful lot of opinion out there suggesting that I replace my fuses with soldered links because I have a radial. However, that was NOT the opinion of my qualified electrician. He was careful in certifying his work but also checking out the safety of my setup, for which I was grateful. Should the worst happen I know that my system is as safe as can be and unlikely to cause the issue.
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Post by AlanS on Jan 28, 2018 12:52:29 GMT
I think one should be careful of those who are spouses, lifelong friends and others who are ‘on your side’. Whilst massive emotional support in times of distress and misery their stated views on HiFi will be coloured by other aspects of relationship. Being of a neutral outlook with hints of cynicism I find it hard to share the experiences many in the HiFi world enthuse over. Far more difference is heard due to the sources physical and media than cables and bits. Amp, speakers yes. Perhaps I have no taste or just enjoy the music more.
Last night I explored the song Maggie May first by Rod and his different versions then by others. Spotify so the quality was various but the music far more varied. Power cabling and fuses didn’t begin to show their faces.
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Post by pinkie on Jan 28, 2018 13:27:02 GMT
I have little doubt that Martin has experienced an improvement to sound after fitting these blue fuses. I question whether actually, considering his set up he could make even better gains by doing things a bit differently along the lines I have suggested. I understand, Greg, and there seems to be an awful lot of opinion out there suggesting that I replace my fuses with soldered links because I have a radial. However, that was NOT the opinion of my qualified electrician. He was careful in certifying his work but also checking out the safety of my setup, for which I was grateful. Should the worst happen I know that my system is as safe as can be and unlikely to cause the issue. I think it would be more likely to be a regulations / insurance cover issue than safety. If you have a separate radial with a breaker at 10A (or even 16A) then your system is safe as a French, Dutch, Swiss installation. No fuses in my plugs - but all leads are protected by a dedicated 10A breaker. (The other issue, VERY unlikely to affect your HiFi, is leads with smaller conductors intended for protection by 3A fuses) But there might be an insurance issue in the event of a fire - based on regulations, hence your sparkies advice. Note BS1363 is specifically a British standard, not EU regulations, and so for example, CE marking of plugs is not appropriate.
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Post by pinkie on Jan 28, 2018 16:05:55 GMT
Currently I use a balanced mains supply. At certain times of the day the mains became audibly noisy and measurable. Yes, I measured it, Richard. I introduced a DC blocking circuit which sorted out the noise and it’s presence did not impact on sound quality. Interesting. How much was your DC offset Greg? When you say your mains is noisy, do you mean your balanced power supply transformer is noisy? Adding a DC blocker to your BPS could only quieten the transformer in it. It wouldn't affect the sound of anything plugged into the BPS. The BPS is a transformer and would therefore have an output completely free of DC offset. (Which accords with your statement that the DC blocker didn't affect sound quality) BTW - your idea for better than foo-fuses (I am married to a teacher, and I suspect not all your own work!!) is already implemented here. It's like the flight deck of the fucking space shuttle here. Not a fuse in sight. ( I wonder if I could get audiofile circuit breakers??) Consumer unit ,
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Post by Slinger on Jan 28, 2018 16:13:51 GMT
...( I wonder if I could get audiofile circuit breakers??)... Russ Andrews sell audiophile consumer units; either RCD or for £90.00 more, non-RCD.
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