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Post by pinkie on Jan 26, 2018 12:14:11 GMT
And I've reported my findings. The fuse has a definite effect on the sound quality of the system. P.S. please let us know which brands of specialist fuse you have tried and in which positions? I didn't try a specialist fuse (see my earlier question regarding "no fuse") As reported in another thread, Wonky and I tried swapping IEE leads on his last visit On your advice, we chose the IEE for the power amp as the one most likely to have an effect ( I have subsequently also tried the pre-amp) We replaced the regular UK IEE with a regular fuse which was plugged into a multiway UK adaptor (with a french plug on the lead to the wall) with a french (fuseless) IEE lead direct to a separate socket on a dedicated radial. So we replaced an ordinary fuse with no fuse. It made no difference that either of us could hear. This is not a surprise - I have no problems accepting the result. It is quite offensive at times how you label people who don't hear magic effects from improbable tweaks "objectivists", implying they own equipment to measure rather than listen to, and assume that they are unprepared to try. I purchased (bargain basement) foo mains leads from Mr Brook a few years ago, and found no difference. I tried no fuse and found no difference. Over the years, with my designer chums who all work for respected HiFi businesses, and whilst at PT whilst running it, and whilst a mere groupie, I did a lot of listening, and could hear a lot of genuine differences - blind and sighted. We liked to do blind tests of things which were in any way subtle, to reassure us that the thing tested was responsible for what we heard, independent of our expectations or other influences. My chums, as well as being engineers, were familiar with the science related to the human mind and sensory perception as well. Like Wonky - I have no issue with you discovering great benefits to gizmo's when you listen. It obviously enhances your experience of music. But I don't assume that the equipment necessarily is responsible for the differences heard and reported- especially where I try it myself and hear nothing. After a while (a lot of years) I have a filter for which things to try, and which to reject as probable foo, which helps me concentrate on what is likely to work for me, but I retain an open mind.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 26, 2018 12:29:40 GMT
Richard, you wrote this "The fuse has no effect on the performance of the equipment" which appears to be a statement of fact but I realise can only be your opinion. You subsequently admit that you have not tried any specialist fuses. All the rest of your post above is smoke and mirrors. What am I to conclude except that you have a baseless opinion?
You seem to think that my findings are isolated. I have had several people over, whose hearing and opinions I value, and we can all hear the effect of changing power cables and changing fuses. I have also visited many other systems and heard the effects of cable swaps there, too. Now, I'll respect your findings when swapping cables - you didn't hear any differences. Fine. However, I will not respect your opinion on fuses as you really have no experience of trying them.
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Post by pinkie on Jan 26, 2018 13:24:20 GMT
You subsequently admit that you have not tried any specialist fuses. All the rest of your post above is smoke and mirrors. What am I to conclude except that you have a baseless opinion? You seem to think that my findings are isolated. I have had several people over, whose hearing and opinions I value, and we can all hear the effect of changing power cables and changing fuses. I have also visited many other systems and heard the effects of cable swaps there, too. Now, I'll respect your findings when swapping cables - you didn't hear any differences. Fine. However, I will not respect your opinion on fuses as you really have no experience of trying them.Martin Sometimes I wonder whether you read what you write. I certainly wonder whether you read what I write. A few posts ago we established that a fuse cannot enhance the system. Anticipating a comment like the one quoted above, I specifically re-asked the question. The best fuse is accordingly no fuse. No fuse is the absolute ultimate off-the-chart platinum standard best fuse you can try(Or have you changed your mind, and are you now saying that I could enhance my french mains arrangements if I found a way to add fuses because they are better than mere mains cable?) My experiment describes comparing an ordinary fuse with no fuse, the very best fuse there is. The result was the same - no difference. And no surprise. No smoke. No mirrors. Just rational experimentation. Are you confident that if I gave you 5 identical mains leads, some with ordinary fuses, and some with a specialist fuse of your choice fitted, and you didn't know which fuse was in which lead, that you could reliably identify them by plugging them in to whatever you like and listening to whatever and however you like? Label the leads 1-5 and fit fuses on a roll of the dice. Even number = ordinary fuse. Odd number = designer fuse. How long would a demonstration of your ability to identify which leads had a designer fuse in take? I accept you and others hear differences when you listen. But I accept that what any of us hear is influenced by many factors.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 26, 2018 14:18:48 GMT
We ALL established that no fuse is better than any fuse. I can't think of a single post on any forum anywhere that suggests otherwise!
You wrote "The fuse has no effect on the performance of the equipment", which is not saying the same thing at all.
I'll leave it at that as arguing semantics with you hurts my brain.
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Post by julesd68 on Jan 26, 2018 17:23:38 GMT
There's only one thing for it - a black-tie men only event of course ...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2018 19:08:54 GMT
I don't get why anybody cares, let alone getting all stirred up. Nobody is being asked to pay for someone else's choices. If you think it's snake-oil don't buy one. If you're at all curious, it's effectively free to try because they are sold on 30 day return basis. What anyone else thinks is entirely irrelevant to whether or not you will hear a difference.
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Post by pinkie on Jan 26, 2018 19:29:24 GMT
There's only one thing for it - a black-tie men only event of course ... Mine's the short one. It's January after all
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Post by MartinT on Jan 26, 2018 20:40:25 GMT
I re-fuse to comment further
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Post by The Brookmeister on Jan 26, 2018 21:17:33 GMT
I re-fuse to comment further LOL you won't be able to hold back dude they are going mental over the pond about this. Its an easy trial, get a headphone amplifier of note and a bunch of fuses (most have a fused iec inlet) swap fuses and listen, easy.
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Post by The Brookmeister on Jan 26, 2018 21:20:09 GMT
You're ignoring thermal non-linearity. It's the mechanism whereby fuses work. No I'm not. I'm reporting my findings on the performance of the fuse. The fuse has no effect on the performance of the equipment.Quite right the equipment will still switch on and it will function 100% correctly regardless of what fuse is fitted (correctly rated of course).
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Post by MartinT on Jan 26, 2018 22:31:57 GMT
you won't be able to hold back dude they are going mental over the pond about this In the words of Catherine Tate, "do I look bothered?"
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Post by ChrisB on Jan 26, 2018 23:39:12 GMT
I've just had a brilliant idea. Why doesn't someone set up a forum where they "don't allow people to challenge what people hear"?
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Post by MartinT on Jan 26, 2018 23:44:37 GMT
What a great idea!
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Post by sq225917 on Jan 27, 2018 13:55:44 GMT
I think you'll find that quite a few forums don't let you challenge what people think they hear. They get shirty about it, as if it's some personal criticism that they don't take accurate steps to exclude bias. Criticise the forum owners views and 'whup' your gone. Gladly not here or other places where I post regularly.
Pinkie, I doubt you'll get anyone who owns a fuse who'd take that test. You know blind tests are really stressfull etc etc (cont on pg17)
My opinion, identify the difference blind, then you can subjectify how it sounds to your hearts content. Tell the world about it, sing it from the rooftops. But if one isn't prepared to do that, or provide measurements to back up a personal assertion, well.....
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Post by pinkie on Jan 27, 2018 14:25:50 GMT
I think you'll find that quite a few forums don't let you challenge what people think they hear. They get shirty about it, as if it's some personal criticism that they don't take accurate steps to exclude bias. Criticise the forum owners views and 'whup' your gone. Gladly not here or other places where I post regularly. Pinkie, I doubt you'll get anyone who owns a fuse who'd take that test. You know blind tests are really stressfull etc etc (cont on pg17) My opinion, identify the difference blind, then you can subjectify how it sounds to your hearts content. Tell the world about it, sing it from the rooftops. But if one isn't prepared to do that, or provide measurements to back up a personal assertion, well..... I sort of agree, but (believe it or not) I'm mellowing. I share Wonky and Spica's view that its harmless enough and I wouldn't want to spoil anybody's fun. I'm fine with people hearing a difference themselves and enjoying all their gadgets and gizmos. It clearly makes the hobby for them. You are of course absolutely right that there is a certain defensiveness against any idea of proving anything - as though to move beyond mere personal subjective enjoyment and actually demonstrate something, would somehow sully the whole experience and leave it forever tarnished. This is fine if you are buying. More open to suggestions of snake oil if you are selling. But I think trading standards are clearly pretty laid back on this. My guys still prefer to reassure themselves as best they can with reasonably bias-free testing of any claims. I get a tad more defensive when the pseudo-science justifications after the fact come along, particularly when there is an implication that those who listen and find no difference either haven't bothered to try (not true) or have inferior hearing ***(very subjectivist - since our listening experience is clearly intensely personal and unshareable - unless you properly test it in a bias free manner). Dismissing the idea ( in the face of countless studies to the contrary) that the explanation may not be "objectivists" deafness or dogma, but the fact that there is nothing "shareable" to hear. And having worked a while in this racket, for businesses concerned to be objectively sure that differences were real, I am comfortable with the idea that you CAN prove a lot of these things. If you want to. There is no need to prove anything when its your hobby. Hear what you hear and enjoy it. But I find the things that could be proved (or made reasonable proper scientific sense anyway) more enduring and less prone to fad - in the manner of Martins life-changing experience with the DC blocker that faded away. *** actually I have very good hearing - measured. Just had my final ENT consultation (I hope) including a booth hearing test. My left ear (which I had had the troubles with) was 20:20 and my right ear was just 6db down at 14Khz and 18Khz - but I could still hear those frequencies. Not bad for 56!! And I always have a short fuse in January
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Post by Stratmangler on Jan 27, 2018 14:49:59 GMT
Its an easy trial, get a headphone amplifier of note and a bunch of fuses (most have a fused iec inlet) swap fuses and listen, easy. Just done this David, and there's sod all difference in sound quality when switching fuses. I used one of the AMR ones - they were given away as a sample by someone or other at Whittlebury a few years ago. Can't remember who gave them away.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 27, 2018 15:27:25 GMT
in the manner of Martins life-changing experience with the DC blocker that faded away. You have a manner with throw-away comments that are designed to infuriate. It just makes me realise that you're not worth the effort, so I will no longer bother with your cod-scientific bollocks, your 'electrician mate behind the scenes' and your so-called industry experience. Your opinions are all bluster yet you offer not a shred of believable personal experience. My opinion is that your system is simply incapable of resolving to a sufficient level. I have explained exactly why I needed a DC blocker then and no longer need one now. As for the measurements debate, bring it on. As soon as someone has worked out how to measure the difference between a system that images behind the plane of the speakers and one that images in front? How about soundstage width? Or perhaps can explain why making a subtle change brings the backing vocals slightly to the fore at the expense of the Mellotron stage-left. No, I didn't think so. I don't buy the SR fuse explanations, either, but they definitely do something interesting. When someone works out how to measure that difference, we will all benefit.
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Post by Stratmangler on Jan 27, 2018 16:28:15 GMT
I have explained exactly why I needed a DC blocker then and no longer need one now A DC blocker is invaluable here. I have one feeding a distribution board, and it has a positive effect on everything plugged into it, especially the TT.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2018 16:33:02 GMT
in the manner of Martins life-changing experience with the DC blocker that faded away. My opinion is that your system is simply incapable of resolving to a sufficient level. How can you have an opinion of a system you have never heard? It matters not to me one bit, but to be honest, I have been waiting for the words in the quote to appear for quite some time. I am happy people are enjoying these fuses, but I don't feel the need to try one (or many) myself. I would rather buy more vinyl.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 27, 2018 16:36:44 GMT
How can you have an opinion of a system you have never heard? Based on the copious evidence provided.
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