|
Post by dsjr on Jan 8, 2016 13:14:34 GMT
£2700 is beyond most interested people anyway. back in 2001, a 1200mk2 was under £400 from memory and the lovely blingy gold one around £549 in Camden Superfi. I should have bought one, but the Dual 701 is so good sounding, it was un-necessary at the time for me.
|
|
|
Post by DaveC on Jan 8, 2016 18:51:49 GMT
But I doubt it's any better, if as good, as the old SL-1200. Do you know anything about that new motor, Dave? I have the photographs of it's construction and bearing. The motor has less poles so is intrinsically "likely" to be poorer, and it's construction using flat windings is cheaper to make and has less torque. Bearing in mind the arm that comes with it, I'm not sure that this is a high end turntable. The bearing is similar to the SP-15 and could possibly be upgraded, or not, depending on what happens when it's taken apart. In essence, I see a new motor designed because the old machine broke, and it's a low cost implementation. This doesn't necessarily spell poor performance, but again look at the arm. I would truly like it to be £4K and brilliant, time will tell. It won't sell to forum people, but if it was good I would buy 5 for stock.
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Jan 9, 2016 10:55:53 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Jan 9, 2016 11:07:28 GMT
It won't sell to forum people Sweeping statement Dave for a new product I understand you haven't actually tried yet. If they are still making them in 3 years time, I'm going to buy one - mind you, am I a forum person?
|
|
|
Post by DaveC on Jan 9, 2016 13:22:44 GMT
It won't sell to forum people Sweeping statement Dave for a new product I understand you haven't actually tried yet. If they are still making them in 3 years time, I'm going to buy one - mind you, am I a forum person? At £4K new (£500 more than a SME 10) they won't to forum people, I should know !!! But second hand, if available, and I doubt it, then maybe ? How much did you pay for your last turntable Tim ?
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Jan 9, 2016 13:34:16 GMT
I suppose they can afford to leave a 2M Black 'playing' the inner groove all day too DC's right though. The 'cachet' isn't there at £3K and over, where it is for an SME 10 or my favourite NAS HyperSpace with Ace arm.. Until it's launched, we won't know, but why couldn't they have kept the price below a grand stirling?
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Jan 9, 2016 13:46:56 GMT
How much did you pay for your last turntable Tim ? £340.00. They are doing a standard run as well as the Special Edition though Dave, which is more what I'm talking about and the one I have earmarked as a likely purchase. I may go mad one day though as I like the 301 that the Classic Turntable Company produce. That in a Russ Collinson plinth would be rather nice and in the same price bracket that 'forum people' don't buy. I still think it's rather a sweeping statement, the majority of forum people is nearer the mark IMO. Buy hey, it's good to see them bring it back, however it's marketed. As long as the vanilla one is priced correctly it should fly off the shelves. It's certainly got the attention of forum people, that's for sure (that rumoured 4k price tag is USD, £2,700)
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Jan 9, 2016 14:10:19 GMT
301's, 401's, Lenco's and TD124's all suffer one HUGE thing that over-rides all else. They have a high-ish speed motor driving an idler wheel - the TD124 is worse because there's an extra pulley whirling away and belt in the mix too. I'm not saying they don't *play music via records* as well, but there's always this extra drive noise going on, no matter how good the plinth is or how pretty 9to us) the finished product.
Even the SL150/1500's I've used here had absolutely NO extra noise added whatsoever that I could hear, other than what's on the vinyl and the Dual 701 comes close too as it's a direct drive, albeit with a little more character.
Once I'd serviced and set the SL1500's up, they were just boringly good to use and very, very good sounding to my ears. Just a bit too 'efficient' for me at the time as they NEVER get in the way. I'm sure the 1200mk2 series are exactly the same with just a little fettling and the new one will probably not let the side down either, apart from silly pricing.
P.S. Does the Technics brand-name really have the cachet world-wide to justify the high pricing? Smacks of high profit band-wagon to me - sorry...
|
|
|
Post by MartinT on Jan 9, 2016 14:21:11 GMT
...or "Techniques" as the Americans insist on calling it!
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Jan 9, 2016 14:26:44 GMT
That 'cachet' is probably justified, depends on what market you place it in though. But lets not get ahead of ourselves, the special edition is just bling and some folk with too much money will buy it just because it's limited to 1200 and has a fancy badge on it. The real product in my opinion is the one that will get launched later in 2016 for the masses, that's what we should be judging, assuming it's priced so us mere mortals can afford it. And we will have to wait for that one.
|
|
|
Post by Slinger on Jan 9, 2016 15:55:01 GMT
So, does this mean that those people who have spent thousands "improving" their Techies will have to start again, from scratch, or do we think that the new vanilla SL1200 will be worse than the original no matter what it actually sounds like?
|
|
|
Post by MartinT on Jan 9, 2016 16:00:05 GMT
I don't think we have enough information to know, really.
In no way does it negate what some of us have now, though.
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Jan 9, 2016 16:00:13 GMT
Haha, interesting point Slinger and very well presented I'll more than likely be happy with a plain vanilla. But no matter how good it is, there will always be dissenters, the proof will be in how well it sells I guess. Intriguing times for both the music industry and fans of LP records (I hate calling it vinyl).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2016 16:32:17 GMT
I don't think we have enough information to know, really. In no way does it negate what some of us have now, though. How do you know until you have heard it?
|
|
|
Post by MartinT on Jan 9, 2016 23:02:38 GMT
Because nothing negates what I have now. That's not to say the new deck might not be better!
|
|
|
Post by Greg on Jan 9, 2016 23:56:40 GMT
301's, 401's, Lenco's and TD124's all suffer one HUGE thing that over-rides all else. They have a high-ish speed motor driving an idler wheel - the TD124 is worse because there's an extra pulley whirling away and belt in the mix too. I'm not saying they don't *play music via records* as well, but there's always this extra drive noise going on, no matter how good the plinth is or how pretty 9to us) the finished product.
Well, technically you are probably right in terms of unit noise although I would not say it was a 'HUGE thing that over-rides all else'. Actually I would say the very opposite. A well fettled idler (401 in my experience) is extremely low noise and that mechanical noise does not impinge on the audio sound production. Please think this through. If it did there would never be so many of us 301/401/124 users happily using our TT's as our preferred source. We are not blinkered, our ears are good and thus we are the proper arbiters of our systems. It would be good for you to rethink your arguement or at the very least, go and listen to a system with one of these well fettled units in place so you can afterwards speak with a reasonable level of authority. MODERATION: Personal comments removed.
|
|
|
Post by julesd68 on Jan 10, 2016 2:53:13 GMT
Intriguing times for both the music industry and fans of LP records (I hate calling it vinyl). No problem with vinyl, but the use of 'vinyls' instead of lps or records does have a small irritation factor...
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Jan 10, 2016 8:04:40 GMT
It's interesting listening to the artists I like talk about their latest music releases, they all seem to use the word record, even when they have only released a CD or download.
|
|
|
Post by dsjr on Jan 10, 2016 14:05:26 GMT
301's, 401's, Lenco's and TD124's all suffer one HUGE thing that over-rides all else. They have a high-ish speed motor driving an idler wheel - the TD124 is worse because there's an extra pulley whirling away and belt in the mix too. I'm not saying they don't *play music via records* as well, but there's always this extra drive noise going on, no matter how good the plinth is or how pretty 9to us) the finished product.
Well, technically you are probably right in terms of unit noise although I would not say it was a 'HUGE thing that over-rides all else'. Actually I would say the very opposite. A well fettled idler (401 in my experience) is extremely low noise and that mechanical noise does not impinge on the audio sound production. Please think this through. If it did there would never be so many of us 301/401/124 users happily using our TT's as our preferred source. We are not blinkered, our ears are good and thus we are the proper arbiters of our systems. It would be good for you to rethink your arguement or at the very least, go and listen to a system with one of these well fettled units in place so you can afterwards speak with a reasonable level of authority. MODERATION: Personal comments removed.I can speak with some authority on these old decks as I used and listened to so many in different states of tune. I was going to buy a Bastined 401 with plinth and NAS tonearm until I heard the Mentor which was so much cleaner and quieter. The 'noise' I refer to is actually in the midrange - little hums and whines almost but not quite buried in the noise floor. I used headphones a lot and it can be very clearly heard then, especially when going to the likes of a techie or one of the better Thorens belt drives. The Garrards especially, do seem to add a little bottom-end 'grunge' in and this translates to my ears anyway, as a beefy and 'driven' kind of bass sound. The Lenco's are a bit like it too. I've so far owned two 401's in the days before the fancy plinths came along and BOTH had a nasty motor harmonic coming through in the upper bass. This was normal even for 301's when cabinet mounted as most domestic ones were and listeners were totally oblivious to it. I entered the industry in 1973 and it would be three years before the 401 finally bit the dust. it was a known thing then that you had to select your 401 to get a quiet one as they varied so much. Buy a techie 150, 120 or 110, and feedback apart, the drive was silent, to the ear as well as through the speakers.
Apologies if my tone is sometimes hectoring or a school-master type, but I'm not as green as cabbage looking and I HAVE been around this hobby since the mid 60's when I used to buy Hi Fi Sound magazine with my pocket money! I was playing with these things when they were either brand new or only a few years old and Aspie that I am, was mopping up as much experience and info as I could manage. More recently, I've listened extensively to rebuilt 301's and 401's and fully appreciate what a good plinth can do for them and I've also fettled a few TD124's as well, setting one up not that long ago. You know Greg, perhaps YOU could listen to some modern decent decks, if you haven't already done so (I'm NOT being patronising I promise), but I suppose my abrupt matter of fact manner in topics I do know something about, means I have to continually justify myself. Modern heavyweight direct, cord and belt drives really can take the noise floor lower than a vintage idler or idler/belt model and the better the cartridge behaves with surface noise and other vinyl artefacts, the bigger this difference can be I promise you!
Incidentally, by the late 60's, the best so called 'Top End' turntable in the UK was the Sony TTS 3000 which, if nothing else, measured better than all the usual classics 'we' wet ourselves over. later reading up has reminded me it actually sounds pretty mean as well, but I only had one on my bench once long ago for a cartridge change I recall and my only memories were of a precision, high quality motor and simple but very well made main bearing.
|
|
|
Post by DaveC on Jan 11, 2016 8:34:50 GMT
Mmmmmmmmmm very reluctant to answer any questions ? The last thing you do to Michael Fremer ?
|
|