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Post by ChrisB on Dec 16, 2015 8:27:34 GMT
CD players (&/or DACs) with valves: They've been around for ages now but as far as I can recall, the only ones I've ever had any experience of have been Audio Note ones at shows. Since this is an impossible environment in which to gain an impression of the sound of a single element of a system, I realise that my knowledge of them amounts to almost nothing.
So with that, I'd be interested to hear the thoughts of those people who have more experience than the above of this type of beast, i.e. you've heard them in a system that you otherwise know, or have been able to compare them to other players within the context of the same or a similar system.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2015 9:27:39 GMT
Not much experience here either. A friend had a Digital Audio Company valve CD player. I believe it was from Guy Adams of Voyd fame. It was very fast, powerful and rhythmic. He wishes he had kept it and I wish he'd sold it to me  |
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Post by dsjr on Dec 16, 2015 9:56:47 GMT
There's something to be said for adding a touch of analogue noise (and possibly even harmonic distortion too?) to a CD player. This might mean that the valve stage totally swamps any odd jitter or distortion in the decoding? The Rega Valve Isis does very nicely and it's a shame the price is deemed too high for most UK-based enthusiasts to consider one.
Having said that, properly treated (supplied) op-amps sound amazing too and I reckon a bit too much is done in the final analogue circuits without listening - and I'm NOT dismissing proper objective design either. Thank heavens that many chipsets now have excellent analogue output stages built in, leaving less for bodgers (apologies, CD player designers) to mess up - cough!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2015 14:09:23 GMT
Personally if you have to add valves to a I/V stage of a CDP or dac then IMHO you are not designing the equipment correctly.
Any half competent electronics engineer can put together a non valve output stage that is grain free and can have a touch of warmth if he or she desires.
IMHO it has nothing to with colouration rather than listeners over a certain age who's music preferences (and a reduction of hearing threshold) have diversified as they have broadened they musical scope. Like Naim owners who grow up and out of that style of sound, a more 'safer' and possibly pleasing sound may in fact float that particular persons tastes more.
Conversely I know quite a few younger listeners who now tire very quickly of the I-pod style sound and valves would give them relief of that relentless sound.
Sorry one subject that really gets my goat, do it right in the first place and you will achieve a genuinely more realistically musical experience.
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Post by Eduardo Wobblechops on Dec 16, 2015 14:20:17 GMT
So it's not possible to have a great sounding valve output stage on a cd player or dac then..
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Post by julesd68 on Dec 16, 2015 14:42:00 GMT
Not all owners of valve equipment are after warmth in the sound of course ...
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Post by pre65 on Dec 16, 2015 15:42:17 GMT
So it's not possible to have a great sounding valve output stage on a cd player or dac then..
Perhaps not many here have had the opportunity to hear some of Nick Gorhams genius creations ?  |
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Post by MartinT on Dec 16, 2015 15:54:55 GMT
I personally don't like them because the designs always appear to have 'added' valves in for something 'added' to the sound. That's not what I want. I've heard the Tempest and Shanling creations but they have by no means Earth shattering SQ.
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Post by Eduardo Wobblechops on Dec 16, 2015 17:45:16 GMT
Well I have the prototype of Nick's LDA dac. He used a valve output stage for simplicity, the output from the dac chip feeds directly to the grid of the valve. Sounds pretty bloody good to me, and it's won every bake off I've taken it to.
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Post by jandl100 on Dec 16, 2015 18:33:12 GMT
I'm listening to a DAC with a valve output buffer (rather than a pukka valve output stage, I think) right now. It sounds very good indeed. A real musical communicator. I used to have a Jolida DAC which had the same idea. That was good, too. I've had pure solid state DACs and CDPs which also sounded great. I don't think it's possible, or even sensible, to draw conclusions about the use of valves in CD playback - it all depends on the implementation imo. Just try some and see. Some you may like, others you may not. |
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Post by gazjam on Dec 16, 2015 20:54:06 GMT
So it's not possible to have a great sounding valve output stage on a cd player or dac then..
Perhaps not many here have had the opportunity to hear some of Nick Gorhams genius creations ? Aye... Not all valve kit is created equal, know this from personal experience. Its like saying all solid state kit sounds the same, just because its solid state. Implementation Implementation Implementation... |
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Post by ChrisB on Dec 16, 2015 21:49:52 GMT
In respect of amplifiers, it seems clear that there is the 'warm rosy glow' school of design and marketing (and customer requirement/expectation) and the other view which is kind of 'pushing for our version of perfection'. I get the idea that with CD players, people think that there are more of the former than the latter?
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Post by Stratmangler on Dec 16, 2015 22:06:14 GMT
In respect of amplifiers, it seems clear that there is the 'warm rosy glow' school of design and marketing (and customer requirement/expectation) and the other view which is kind of 'pushing for our version of perfection'. I get the idea that with CD players, people think that there are more of the former than the latter? Gary's 300B SET poweramp is not cuddly sounding - it has a lot of state of the art solid state regulation, and its capabilities are hugely increased as a result. It's quite uncanny listening to an amp that by reputation is warm and cuddly, yet in reality is capable of driving quite difficult speakers and telling it like it is. I wouldn't entertain a more traditional 300B SET poweramp - they're awful, coloured, gutless pipe and slippers affairs. Build in a really beefy power supply and the soundscape changes for the better. |
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Post by Eduardo Wobblechops on Dec 16, 2015 22:31:22 GMT
State of the art regulation indeed, AFAIK quieter than anything available commercially.
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Post by Stratmangler on Dec 16, 2015 22:49:17 GMT
Mr Lehane has developed something very special indeed.
And its application is not limited purely to thermionic situations.
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Post by MikeMusic on Dec 17, 2015 13:08:15 GMT
I'd love to hear a valve version of the Isis CD player
Said by some to be the best there is.
A Rega man I grabbed on the phone said they were both very good, just 'different'
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Post by julesd68 on Dec 17, 2015 13:14:26 GMT
I wonder whether they would lend you one Mike to do a side by side comparison - I'd be interested to hear that as I'm not sure how your Isis could be improved upon!
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Post by MikeMusic on Dec 17, 2015 13:37:17 GMT
Well I've tricked my Isis up a bit......
Fed by the P10 with Coherent 6D cables to both P10 and Isis
Yannis XLR interconnects
Marigo CD mat.
Sitting on RDC cones
on Steve, Electric beach platform
on RDC cones, yes 2 lots
on a Mana Reference top
on a Mana Rack
on about 6 Mana sound bases
oh yes and Steve's tops on top of the Isis
Interesting thing about the Marigo
When Martin's Ayre and the Isis had a bake off the Marigo made them both sound better, but really odd, closer in sound to each other with Marigo.
So I wonder with all that trickery if my SS Isis might be closer to the Valve
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Post by steveeb on Dec 17, 2015 13:48:33 GMT
I've had a Duncan Dac in use for quite a few years now. It's only fed by an Oppo 103 as transport/ file player so capable of more than I hear, but each time I start to think it's the weak link I'm proved wrong. My main comparison CD players were only Pioneer 703 and Consonance 120, but easily showed how coloured and contrived the Musical Fidelity (lol) DAC21 was that it replaced. The reason I value it's contribution has nothing to do with adding warmth, but it does add weight and solidity to the presentation. It gives me tonal information and projection like nothing else I've heard from anything I could afford and seems to have the ability to send sounds spinning off out into the room - a trait that has nothing to do with my system or room as the previous owner was also amazed at this effect. Whether this has anything to do with designing using valves I haven't a Scooby. But if I didn't have this my first evaluation would also be the Jolida FX for similar cost - or I'd buy Nick's DAC unheard.  |
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Post by MartinT on Dec 17, 2015 13:53:30 GMT
Interesting thing about the Marigo When Martin's Ayre and the Isis had a bake off the Marigo made them both sound better, but really odd, closer in sound to each other with Marigo. Yes, I remember that well. TonyC has since breathed on my Ayre with the power supply mods. I am back to comparing both my Marigo CD mats on the basis that I might better hear the difference between them now. |
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