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Post by ajski2fly on Sept 23, 2021 14:09:21 GMT
I was having an interesting conversation with an audiophile friend around amplifiers and speakers, he is going through an "I am dissatisfied with an aspect of how it sounds in relation to bass control", current thoughts on this is it is likely due to the amp/speaker synergy, and at present an amp change is being carefully looked into.
Following on from this I had a discussion with a very well respected hifi dealer/friend and audiophile buff who has many years of experience selling what most of us mere mortals would consider hi-end audio equipment, having said that he has sold reasonably priced good equipment as well.
I broached the topic with him, and after some thought and discussion he considered that there are definitely some outstanding pieces of equipment, but not necessarily better than any others, it depends on what they are matched with, the environment and what the customer likes. He also made a big caveat that matching equipment carefully was and should be an absolute priority, that is often missed. For example in his opinion and experience taking a £10-20K amp and putting it a random pair of £10-20K speakers is not likely to work and actually may sound pretty poor, you may get very lucky but not likely. He said the same is true at any end of the price scale, be it budget or at the very hi-end £100K and beyond. We briefly discussed the differences between Solid State(SS) and Valve amps, if I understood him correctly there are amps in each of these two camps that exhibit and exaggerate particular traits or characteristics of the design when reproducing music. So for example we often hear reported that valves have a laid back and warm feel, whereas SS have more punch, better low end control and feels more dynamic. He thought this to be a rather simplistic view and is not true of all SS or Valve amps, good designs will do all aspects well, and they will be relatively neutral in presentation, especially if married up to a good pair of speakers which work well with the amp in question.
We briefly talked about speakers and in summary I think this was the general view. Whether horns, closed cabinet, ported, or combinations thereof in design, getting rid of false colouration from erroneously induced vibrations from the cabinets or construction was of key importance, effectively a rigid design was key to allow accurate musical rendition, and carefully matching the speakers to the amp so that the amp can adequately meet the demands of the speaker drivers. Often the demands put on an amp by the bass and low mids are completely under-estimated by many, and if the amp is taken beyond its capabilities then quickly clarity will be lost and the sound will become muddied to some extent, this is often incorrectly blamed on the speakers, whereas its really due to mismatching.
In my case I can relate to quite a bit of the above having gone through many various iterations of speaker and amp combinations, some sounded OK, some sounded poor in certain areas. I have gone through quite a bit of audiophile pain, both in terms of frustration and cost, I even ditched everything for about 10 years and gave up listening properly to music. In fact after faffing around for the past 7 years, going through 6 speakers and 5 amps only recently have I got to a level of SQ reproduction that I am really at home with:doh: , having recently changed my amplifier, and I am pleased to say that so far it works on all types of music I have listened to.
I thought this might form an interesting discussion topic, your thoughts and audio experiences would be interesting and may help others along the way.
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Post by John on Sept 23, 2021 15:15:54 GMT
I don't think there is a best bit of kit that would have universal appeal. I also think as we get deeper into this what we value changes in the same way our musical tastes change over time. Another thing that is often overlooked is your room acoustics and the size of your listening space. Most people are going to have a system in their main room and only a few will have a dedicated listening room.
So perhaps the best bit of kit for our preferences and listening space might be a realistic target.
In terms of system approach some of what I am doing goes against your friend wealth of experience but it works for me. I am used to hearing some real high end systems and don't feel I am short changed. Vic had a high end dealer from Bahrain visit him and it kind of blew away his idea of what is possible.
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Post by MikeMusic on Sept 23, 2021 15:31:49 GMT
Some people would say "too detailed, too much going on" and more  |
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Post by ajski2fly on Sept 23, 2021 15:39:28 GMT
I don't think there is a best bit of kit that would have universal appeal. I also think as we get deeper into this what we value changes in the same way our musical tastes change over time. Another thing that is often overlooked is your room acoustics and the size of your listening space. Most people are going to have a system in their main room and only a few will have a dedicated listening room. So perhaps the best bit of kit for our preferences and listening space might be a realistic target. In terms of system approach some of what I am doing goes against your friend wealth of experience but it works for me. I am used to hearing some real high end systems and don't feel I am short changed. Vic had a high end dealer from Bahrain visit him and it kind of blew away his idea of what is possible. I did mention " the environment and what the customer likes." which is a simple way of referring to the listening room and its acoustics, and personal taste, which IMO is very important. I generally agree, I have heard some the above mentioned dealers system(s), what I heard was superb, but I suppose it should be as what I heard cost in excess of £600K if I recall correctly, is it worth that level for what it costs I am not so sure. As you rightly point out, I am also limited on listening space to our main room and also where the gear can be set up, before we recently moved and did some building work I took the time to think through where it might best fit and speakers were likely to work reasonably well, luckily it sounds pretty good IMHO. The other option would be to do an extension, knock down the garage and build a listening room. I don't have the cash for that and SWMBO would not be happy with that level of extravagance. My system is not cheap overall but is not in the realms of fantasy land financially, having just swapped a £6K valve amp for a £2k used SS I have got a much better result so sort of goes along with your view, I think. The dealer was not espousing hi-end as the panacea, he did recognise that there are some very capable less expensive kit that is great VFM and if set up right and properly in a room will produce excellent results, its just knowing what it is and what works well with what that is the problem. |
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Post by julesd68 on Sept 23, 2021 15:40:25 GMT
I think the problem for each of us wanting to find 'the best' product at a given price point, to suit our own tastes and rooms, is lack of access to a big enough range of kit.
If you want to buy new, there aren't so many 'superdealers' left who will give you a big choice to audition from. I remember auditioning budget amps and speakers at The Music Room in Manchester back in the 80's - they had a huge range to choose from, just about every significant player in the market. It was audiophile heaven. So you could end up with something that could be near the best for your pocket and tastes. Those days are gone of course. Many dealers have fairly 'niche' portfolios nowadays and don't have huge stock and demo facilities.
Buying second-hand is trial and error of course, until you find something that gels in your system. So it's essentially impossible to find the very best, you just end up with something you are happy with and will live with till upgraditis strikes again. For most people there is a limit to how much buying and selling they will do in a year to reach audio nirvana. Unless you are Jerry of course. 
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Post by ajski2fly on Sept 23, 2021 15:51:49 GMT
I think the problem for each of us wanting to find 'the best' product at a given price point, to suit our own tastes and rooms, is lack of access to a big enough range of kit.
If you want to buy new, there aren't so many 'superdealers' left who will give you a big choice to audition from. I remember auditioning budget amps and speakers at The Music Room in Manchester back in the 80's - they had a huge range to choose from, just about every significant player in the market. It was audiophile heaven. So you could end up with something that could be near the best for your pocket and tastes. Those days are gone of course. Many dealers have fairly 'niche' portfolios nowadays and don't have huge stock and demo facilities.
Buying second-hand is trial and error of course, until you find something that gels in your system. So it's essentially impossible to find the very best, you just end up with something you are happy with and will live with till upgraditis strikes again. For most people there is a limit to how much buying and selling they will do in a year to reach audio nirvana. Unless you are Jerry of course.
Yes completely agree and sadly so true, very few dealers today are even that bother about demoing their stock and I have found even try to limit time and numbers of items. I even had one say to me "Well you don't really know what you are looking for so how can I help you with that". In the past I have asked several to loan or do a home demo and just got a flat no, even though I was possibly going to spend several thousands on gear. As you say sadly, "those days are gone of course". |
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Post by John on Sept 23, 2021 16:42:28 GMT
One of the things that has helped me is listening to other people's systems noticing what I liked and did not like and then figuring out how I was going to apply that into my own system
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Post by julesd68 on Sept 23, 2021 16:54:04 GMT
Absolutely John.
And also with the lack of quality dealers, this is where the internet comes into play more - we have become dependent on reading online reviews and discussing kit we love or hate, to try and work out what might be the best for us.
Of course some dealers will let you buy mail order and return within a timeframe if you don't like - this can be a good option.
When I bought my Sonus Faber speakers I didn't even bother to demo them at the dealer. It wouldn't have been anything like my system and I thought the price was so good I could easily sell them on if needs be. Fortunately I love them and won't sell till I move to a bigger place.
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Post by John on Sept 23, 2021 17:10:19 GMT
The Sonus Fabers sound great in your system I agree sometimes we have no option but to take a punt and hope for the best.
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Post by julesd68 on Sept 23, 2021 18:08:18 GMT
Cheers!
I think the journey can be important too. What if someone presented you with the 'best' system tomorrow, on the condition that you could never change it for the rest of your life?
I'm not sure I would take that deal.
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Post by John on Sept 23, 2021 18:25:12 GMT
I agree I like the evolution but have been frustrated with it as well
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Post by MartinT on Sept 23, 2021 20:55:20 GMT
For me, it's not about 'the best piece of kit' whatever that may be. Components don't work in isolation. They work as part of a system.
The definition of system is 'a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network; a complex whole'.
This confirms, as we've said time and time again, that it's all about synergy. You should always select a new component within the context of your system. To an extent, a component leaning towards a cool sound can compensate for another with a warm nature, although that's not how I select equipment. Ultimately, we select for our own pleasure and one man's system can be another's screechy horror.
As for price, I have heard £500k systems sound distinctly average. At other times I've heard inexpensive marvels. Price determines very little.
It's not easy building a fine system, it takes skill and patience - much more than selecting components from a recommended list. I feel that I've only just achieved that badge. It took many decades to get to this point - not something that happened just by accident.
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Post by ChrisB on Sept 24, 2021 0:16:20 GMT
The answer to the OP is, no.
As Martin says, it's about systems. It really winds me up when I hear people saying that they heard such and such a speaker or amp, or whatever, and it sounded awful.
What loblocks!
They were listening to an intimately interlinked system of parts and on that day, in that room, when connected to those other components, playing that recording, the sound they heard was not to their taste.
I've been saying for decades that there are very few really bad hifi components, just bad combinations.
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Post by MartinT on Sept 24, 2021 5:24:39 GMT
I've been saying for decades that there are very few really bad hifi components, just bad combinations. Well.... I do largely agree. There are a few components, however, which I've heard on different occasions in different systems and which have never sounded good. |
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Post by ChrisB on Sept 24, 2021 6:24:32 GMT
I notice we both used the word few there!
So we're in complete agreement?
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Post by MartinT on Sept 24, 2021 6:59:26 GMT
I notice we both used the word few there! So we're in complete agreement? Indeed |
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Post by realysm42 on Sept 24, 2021 8:06:27 GMT
'Best' is also subjective (to me). A good way to determine 'best' is the outcome I want to achieve; what must / should / could I have? How do I measure / determine this? It's akin to a project charter. Once know where I want to be, I can create a plan / solution to get there.
I've found it interesting over the years to read people's journeys, where its clear they're taking shots in the dark (and hey if they're happy and having fun - good for them!) with regards to getting wherever they're travelling. I've tried to be clear with where I'm heading (and yes this has changed as I've learnt more) and purchase accordingly.
Specs, measurements, etc, all tell (part of) a story, as do reviews and impressions. All of these data points are useful to an extent.
I never say 'to hell' with specs; they're important in a technical sense, e.g. how many people moan a passive line stage lacks drive when they've manufactured an impedance mismatch? At the same time, I don't let them drive my decisions absolutely.
So....ramble out the way; Best? For an individual sure, absolutely! For everyone? Not possible, as we all have such different destinations in mind.
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Post by julesd68 on Sept 24, 2021 10:38:27 GMT
I also think that our minds aren't programmed to accept 'best' in terms of sound - we are always chasing better even in small increments. And with new technologies always being released or old ones refined, there is the realisation or temptation to think that 'better' is always round the corner ...
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Post by realysm42 on Sept 24, 2021 11:22:44 GMT
Well said.
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Post by MartinT on Sept 24, 2021 14:42:28 GMT
Sometimes an inexpensive shot in the dark can reap rewards, but I agree that lots of research and listening in the context of your system are most likely to be successful.
As for 'better' is always round the corner, I am so astonished at the sound quality I now have, with full due respect to the engineers who laid down to tape far more musical information than I ever thought possible, I am reaching the point where satisfaction and musical discovery are taking precedence over improvements.
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