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Post by John on Jan 19, 2020 17:19:08 GMT
Question Is it mainly dealing with noise generated in the units or is it dealing with more noise coming into the units In my thinking it would be mostly noise generated inside the units.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 19, 2020 18:03:27 GMT
I don't think it can differentiate, John. Noise on the ground plane is what it sucks away and it could be internally or externally generated, most likely both.
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Post by Firebottle on Jan 20, 2020 9:10:59 GMT
The amplitude is going to be greater for the internal stuff but I'm sure it's both.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2020 9:55:02 GMT
I know it's not practical, but as a hypothetical experiment, would a faraday cage be an effective remedy to all but the highest frequency of 'noise' (other than the systems itself, of course).
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Post by MikeMusic on Jan 20, 2020 10:02:30 GMT
No. Opinion of non techy The kit itself puts out rubbish
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Post by MartinT on Jan 20, 2020 13:21:37 GMT
Exactly that, Mike. All equipment, but especially digital equipment, puts out noise. As do power supplies. A Faraday cage would only be a partial remedy. And in my case, it would stop music dead in its tracks as I stream over mobile
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Post by MikeMusic on Jan 20, 2020 16:04:21 GMT
Management summary : There's a load of rubbish floating around. A grounding box can sort a lot of it out Detail - I was helped just a bit with this Grounding boxes and RF collection capability Grounding boxes are a effective form of capturing RF noise in a single convenient place. The noise which sits upon the ground planes within the audio equipment (ground plane being categorised as the ‘0’ Vdc rail.) NOT EARTH from the mains supply. The noise can be made up of the following : Conducted Emissions EMI (Electromagnetic Interference) can be conducted using a physical pathway from A/C line noise ingress (unwanted electrical noise sitting on the incoming mains feed, Harmonics, DC offset and common mode) also with cables attached to the equipment from other equipment in the system. (Or internal cabling), switch mode power supplies, electric motors, Ethernet traffic or high quantity data transmission signals as well as the new micro controllers (Pi style mini pc’s etc) Radiated emissions Generated by any electronic equipment, this can be caused by (unintentional) electromagnetic emissions (field noise) that disperses away from the piece of equipment structure in that equipment's natural working state. Causes of radiated emissions can be:- Circuit board tracks running close to sensitive devices carrying power rails / ground planes. DC<>DC regulators, FETS (Field effect transistors), high bandwidth and or high speed operation amplifiers. The slew rate of devices used in the equipment does have a negative effect on the emissions. Correct ground plane design, proper outside connectors, ac power adapters (lol),. Correct shielding of sensitive components both analogue and digital, clocks, line drivers, op amps, dc-dc converters, FET based power supplies etc. Ill thought out board design is a big issue as well. There is also immunity testing (part of passing the CE testing programme) where a device is subjected to large excess radiated emission at specific frequencies from a high powered signal generator to test the electronic equipment ability to withstand radiated emissions. Interesting test Audio equipment may contain multiple ‘ground rails’ due to the design, some equipment may use fewer. (which is why some equipment requires fewer pathways back to the RF collector/sink than others) The principle behind this is very much like use a studio master reference clock to ‘slave’ all of the other digital devices in the replay or recording chain to deliver a single ‘reference signal’ that all of the other devices are using a single reference clock signal. The upshot is, that RF noise (we are talking high frequency noise here from 8Mhz and significantly above, have even seen measured over 3Ghz @ -45dBm on some audio equipment) sits, travels moves around the ground planes in a significant amount of all electronic equipment not just audio! The statement below is based on observational data, empirical data gathered from a sample of over twenty independent individuals with unconnected ties and totally different audio systems and listening environments. As well as RF measurements relating to frequencies at the receive end of the grounding system chain conducted with certified calibrated devices with test equipment standard cabling and conducted over a number of months on multiple occasions. Though with audio it seems to manifest itself as a masking agent:- In that the more of the RF is removed the greater detail is revealed along with a very definite lowering of the audible noise floor. One of the possible great bonuses of using one of these devices is the relaxing of sound in to a more natural fluid presentation To sum up, the noise being discussed is RF (Radio frequency) and EMI (Electromagnetic Interference) which is taken into the equipment by conducted ( noise travelling along a pathway such a/c cabling, cabling connecting the equipment to another piece of equipment or internal cabling) Or Radiated emissions (much high frequencies) which are transmitted through the air and are picked up /amplified / then conducted into the ground planes within the electronic equipment itself) A grounding device can negate a great deal of this ‘noise’ by enabling the emissions to be conducted away to a device in which they are suppressed/ collected.
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Post by SteveC on Jan 21, 2020 10:06:58 GMT
Thanks Mike A really "Coherent" explanation!
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Post by MikeMusic on Jan 21, 2020 11:19:47 GMT
Suggestion for you SteveC Listen to a track. Disconnect all cables to the RTZ, bung em back in again Play track Improvement in sound ?
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Post by SteveC on Jan 21, 2020 21:55:03 GMT
Suggestion for you SteveC Listen to a track. Disconnect all cables to the RTZ, bung em back in again Play track Improvement in sound ? Mike I've only got the "budget" 6D grounding cables, not the "bankruptcy' range like you!
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Post by John on Jan 22, 2020 5:04:43 GMT
I just swapped the prototype for the RTZ 2 it about triple the weight in the same box. I now get while Mike has been waxing lyrically about grounding boxes. It took a while for the unit to show what it is capable off I would say what it is doing is allowing the music to just sound more realistic. The believability factor of what I am hearing is seriously good
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Post by MikeMusic on Jan 22, 2020 10:08:43 GMT
Suggestion for you SteveC Listen to a track. Disconnect all cables to the RTZ, bung em back in again Play track Improvement in sound ? Mike I've only got the "budget" 6D grounding cables, not the "bankruptcy' range like you! I reckon it has to be worth a bash no matter what cables Certainly check all the ends are firmly in
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Post by MikeMusic on Jan 22, 2020 10:10:37 GMT
I just swapped the prototype for the RTZ 2 it about triple the weight in the same box. I now get while Mike has been waxing lyrically about grounding boxes. It took a while for the unit to show what it is capable off I would say what it is doing is allowing the music to just sound more realistic. The believability factor of what I am hearing is seriously good Still find it difficult to comprehend a lump of metal connected with many cables to redundant sockets on kit can make *any* difference let alone what it does for the sound
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Post by bigman80 on Jan 28, 2020 16:48:17 GMT
I just swapped the prototype for the RTZ 2 it about triple the weight in the same box. I now get while Mike has been waxing lyrically about grounding boxes. It took a while for the unit to show what it is capable off I would say what it is doing is allowing the music to just sound more realistic. The believability factor of what I am hearing is seriously good Still find it difficult to comprehend a lump of metal connected with many cables to redundant sockets on kit can make *any* difference let alone what it does for the sound Just been sent a boat load of measurements demonstrating the difference it makes. Hard to argue with measurements
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Post by MikeMusic on Jan 28, 2020 16:51:58 GMT
SHows what an immature industry hifi is with this sort of improvement available
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Post by John on Jan 28, 2020 18:00:46 GMT
Is it published
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Post by John on Jan 28, 2020 18:26:26 GMT
One of the benefits is the low level detail I now get
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Post by julesd68 on Jan 28, 2020 19:23:36 GMT
Still find it difficult to comprehend a lump of metal connected with many cables to redundant sockets on kit can make *any* difference let alone what it does for the sound Just been sent a boat load of measurements demonstrating the difference it makes. Hard to argue with measurements Ha - depends which forum you are on and who's on it ...
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Post by bigman80 on Jan 28, 2020 19:24:15 GMT
Just been sent a boat load of measurements demonstrating the difference it makes. Hard to argue with measurements Ha - depends which forum you are on and who's on it ... Yes, quite true lol
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Post by MartinT on Jan 28, 2020 20:20:15 GMT
Just been sent a boat load of measurements demonstrating the difference it makes. Hard to argue with measurements It's good when measurements corroborate what we know we can hear.
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