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Post by MartinT on Jun 27, 2018 5:54:46 GMT
Here's a question for all you file-based users out there. File naming in order to get a decent indexing system working and consistent seems to be confusing at best. Furthermore, some file types, such as mp3, can have embedded data whereas wav, for instance, can only go by the file name format itself. Whether album artwork is automatically matched up with it seems almost random, at least in Volumio.
So what is the favoured naming format that works most consistently? I will only be using .wav for CD rips and .flac and .dsf for hi-res rips.
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seanm
Rank: Trio
Posts: 162
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Post by seanm on Jun 27, 2018 6:55:58 GMT
This is a partial answer which I will add to... I have put a lot of effort into this and I still think at best I understand 85% of the problem. Firstly, I *think* that I rely on the embedded meta data to do most of the work for me... I aim to only use flac format and convert WAVs for this reason. I also aim to have a directory/file structure naming scheme which is "human readable" and mirrors the meta data information. I use this : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mp3tagTo do a lot of the donkey work for me.... However, I ripped files to match what I wanted at the time of ripping My music is stored in a tree of folders artist/album/ If it is a "double album" then I add CD1 etc to the above... but modern albums are inconsistent in this respect Files are named : Artist-TrackNo-Trackname.flac Actually, it is the "AlbumArtist" tag rather than artist tag which is used Logically, to be standalone and unique, the filename should have album in there somewhere, but I found it made paths too long and actually caused me problems since many players only display a short string Some thought needs to be given to the naming of different versions of the same album I embed the artwork in the file and also have a copy named folder.jpg in the album folder One thing I do not fully understand.... there seems to be "flac tags" and ID3 tags.... sometimes these seem to interact. Often things just work... possibly when they shouldn't. If I am 100% honest, while I have a system which is 95% working in terms of album art and data...I am not confident even which tags I'm using. I have toyed with writing a tool to check integrity but have never got around to it. Cheers Sean
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Post by Tim on Jun 27, 2018 9:07:23 GMT
100% agree Sean and I'm pretty much identical in every respect to that, even down to using Mp3tag and embedding artwork as well as having a folder.jpg copy in the file folder! I use CD1 and CD2 as well for doubles. My artwork is always 800x800 too.
Martin, I've done oodles of testing and cannot detect a difference between .wav and .flac. Some say they can, I can't even when listening on a good headphone system. But then I'm not obsessive about my music and Hi-Fi. Add to this the fact .wav is rubbish for meta data and uses more space than .wav, then it's a no brainer as I like a lot of embedded meta data information. I often put a lot in the comment section too, so I can read about the album, where/when it was recorded and by whom. Depends on the album, but milestone albums definitely.
The method Sean and I use seems pretty universal, I got there by trial and error and it works. Classical though is something that can confuse, with composer/orchestra/conductor and divides opinion re good meta data conventions. It's partly the reason why I have yet to rip all my classical CDs - I don't yet have a set of rules!
My opinion, if you want good meta data and plan to expand on this, it's got to be .flac for everything. Keep it simple right from the start, but then I'm not you
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Post by MartinT on Jun 27, 2018 9:23:58 GMT
Thanks both, very interesting and a lot to absorb.
Questions: - If I convert WAV to FLAC I need another utility, or can EAC create FLAC directly? Sorry, I haven't looked. - To tag FLAC files, can I use Mp3Tag or is there another utility, or will EAC do it in one go? - I have never seen anything that can convert DSD DSF or DFF files and feel I should leave them in native 1-bit format. Correct? - Does embedded album artwork in each file trump artwork in the folder? Do I need both?
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Post by zippy on Jun 27, 2018 9:45:34 GMT
Many people (me included) Use 'DbPowerAmp' software which does conversion and tag editing. I believe it allows you to choose where to get the artwork (e.g. folder level or file level)
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seanm
Rank: Trio
Posts: 162
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Post by seanm on Jun 27, 2018 10:01:19 GMT
- If I convert WAV to FLAC I need another utility, or can EAC create FLAC directly? Sorry, I haven't looked.
Typically, the ripping process will launch a related "helper" application.....flac for flac or lame for mp3 to do the conversion. dBPowerAmp does this. The helper apps may or may not come as part of the original ripper application install
- To tag FLAC files, can I use Mp3Tag or is there another utility, or will EAC do it in one go?
I have dBPowerAmp do this at the time of ripping. MP3Tag will do it after the event... it will do clever stuff like rename the filename based upon the metadata contents and vice versa
- I have never seen anything that can convert DSD DSF or DFF files and feel I should leave them in native 1-bit format. Correct?
I do not know anything about this... but I always considered keeping master copies of things when conversion is required
- Does embedded album artwork in each file trump artwork in the folder? Do I need both?
Ultimately, I don't know.... I deliberately have both since it's automatic and seems to keep all players happy
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seanm
Rank: Trio
Posts: 162
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Post by seanm on Jun 27, 2018 12:00:21 GMT
Some further musings......
I treat my FLAC repository as the master copy and this is obsessively backed up. I use dBpowerAmp to generate other "disposable" conversions from it. For example low quality mp3s...These are used on my phone and laptop etc..... in fact I wind the quality setting down until my music collection just fits in the available phone memory/microSD card. DbPowerAmp will generate all folder/filenames automagically from the metadata.
The FLAC repository ends up being experimentally played from all manner of clients, TVs via dlna etc. Obviously, this was not a requirement, or even a sensible thing to do, but it was interesting, and by and large the metadata and album art sorted itself out.
One common theme, particularly on phone based players is the truncation of path and file name information.... Following on from my first reply this morning, I would probably recommend putting the most unique/relevant information at the start of the filename rather than the end....
For example :
trackNo-TrackName-Artist.flac
"Special" characters such as "?" in the artist/album/track name upsets filenaming... However, these seem to get magically converted. In the case of a question mark it gets mapped to a upside down / back to front question mark which can be used in paths and filesnames (well at least under windows/samba)
Cheers
Sean
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Post by Slinger on Jun 27, 2018 12:06:48 GMT
At root level, I have alphabetical folders (plus "0-9", "The" and several for individual artists) and place artist/album-named folders in each.
For individual artists I will name the album folder to include the year of release, so Pink Floyd (1968) - A Saucer Full Of Secrets. That way simple alphabetical ordering does the sorting. Including remasters etc, and bootlegs I've got 75 Floyd albums.
If album tracks are in the wrong order use the software suggested earlier to enter the correct track numbers.
My album art is all 400x400 @ 72dpi which is what I use for JRiver and is absolutely fine for Volumio too.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2018 13:29:50 GMT
I used to use ALAC and allow iTunes to do everything for me. But after some advice, I have moved across to dBpoweramp which continues to put things in the format I prefer, which is:
Artist name (folder) Album name (sub-folder) 01 - Track name.flac (numbered filenames)
I tried WAV, but genuinely couldn't hear any difference between it and FLAC, so stayed with FLAC as it takes up less file space.
The only complaint I have with dBpoweramp per se, is that sometimes the album cover doesn't get found and even when I put it in it doesn't recognise it... I think that though is more my unfamiliarity with the product.
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Post by MartinT on Jun 27, 2018 13:48:57 GMT
Looks like dbpoweramp is the preferred ripping/conversion utility.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2018 14:02:36 GMT
Looks like dbpoweramp is the preferred ripping/conversion utility. I have been pretty impressed with the results so far, there is an easily audible difference between it and iTunes, whereby dBpoweramp is significantly more detailed and easier on the ear.
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seanm
Rank: Trio
Posts: 162
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Post by seanm on Jun 27, 2018 14:11:14 GMT
Martin,
I like DBpowerAmp but EAC and the associated free FLAC tools and/or lame should be able to do a similar job... from the features part of the EAC homepage
"Support of external MP3, WMA, flac and OggVorbis encoders for automatic compression after extraction (supports multi-processor environments)"
Trackname editing with local/remote CD databases support and more features like ID3 tagging
Browse and edit local database
Certified Escient ® CDDB(TM)Compatible
Local CDDB support
Automatic renaming of MP3 files accordingto their ID3 tag
ID3 V1.1 tag editor with drag and drop ability from track listing and CD database browser
Cheers
Sean
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Post by MartinT on Jun 27, 2018 14:11:37 GMT
Thanks. Looks like £30 well invested, then.
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Post by Stratmangler on Jun 27, 2018 15:13:15 GMT
Thanks both, very interesting and a lot to absorb. Questions: - If I convert WAV to FLAC I need another utility, or can EAC create FLAC directly? Sorry, I haven't looked. - To tag FLAC files, can I use Mp3Tag or is there another utility, or will EAC do it in one go? - I have never seen anything that can convert DSD DSF or DFF files and feel I should leave them in native 1-bit format. Correct? - Does embedded album artwork in each file trump artwork in the folder? Do I need both? It looks like part of this hasn't been answered, so I'll chip in a couple of pennies worth.
FLAC engine wise you just need FLAC Frontend which is available at Sourceforge. You then point EAC in the direction of FLAC Frontend for post rip processing.
If you set EAC to search online for CD data it will quite happily go to Freedb and pull out the CD tags and utilise them in the post rip process. In truth the Freedb data can take the donkey work out of tagging, but it could do with being scrutinised and edited before starting the rip. Mp3Tag is something you should have, because there will be smelling pistakes and tipping orrors all over the show - there is an almost total disregard to detail, and officially released stuff is usually the worst offender. Mp3Tag is for bolting the stable door after the donkey has gone off down the beach doing what donkeys do.
Embedded artwork is a curious one - I have encountered artwork that is absofrigginly enormous, and it's a disaster for streaming. Generally the artwork in my library is not embedded, and it's usually 600x600 pixels or thereabouts.
Going back onto the tagging of files - classical stuff is usually an atrocious mess.
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Post by Stratmangler on Jun 27, 2018 15:21:54 GMT
I use dBPoweramp too - it's got a nice interface, and does its job quickly and without fuss. It will even add artwork in the process, but some of images are on the poor side. I had dBPoweramp do that for 12 months, and I usually ended up finding better myself, so when it came round to the time the facility dropped off I didn't pay anything to renew.
It has lifetime artwork search now, so if you set it up and use it that should be it for perpetuity.
There is also a very useful DSP package that comes bundled with dbPoweramp, and it's something that I make regular use of.
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Post by MartinT on Jun 27, 2018 16:38:17 GMT
Thanks, Chris. Because I've got EAC up and working, I'll give FLAC Frontend a go as it sounds like it links in the way LAME does.
Artwork: I'm ok downloading a 500x500 image into the folder rather than embedding into files. It doesn't need to be large or brilliant quality.
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Post by Stratmangler on Jun 27, 2018 19:12:10 GMT
This is the naming scheme I use with EAC - I find it works well for me. The string is - %artist%\%albumtitle%\%tracknr2% - %title%
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Post by MartinT on Jun 28, 2018 5:52:09 GMT
With Volumio, I'm realising that for files without metadata (i.e. WAV and DFF files), it doesn't take the filename for indexing so I get a load of tracks with '-' as a name! Not very useful.
Now that I've built the Allo case I shall work on perfecting my FLAC rips and adding proper metadata.
Thanks for that string, Chris.
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Post by Tim on Jun 28, 2018 13:11:04 GMT
Having no metadata can be a right royal pain Martin and different players seem to treat music files differently, hence why I have embedded and folder.jpg artwork. Unnecessary for most players, but as I always create my own artwork (stuff from the web can be very dodgy or wrong), then it's no trouble to keep it. Correct and decent resolution artwork is important to me, for other people, not so much. Doubt you'll have this issue, as you say you are happy with smaller cover art files, but I think Roon has a 600kb limit for associated artwork. That's big though, so rarely effects people. I anticipate one day that's something you will try
My EAC naming string is nearly the same as Chris (%albumartist%\%albumtitle%\%tracknr2% %title%). That works with all the players I have tried, it scrobbles with Last.fm correctly, if that's important.
One thing to bear in mind, which catches my friend out all the time and is mentioned by Chris. Always check the album information from FreeDB and suchlike, as spelling mistakes, lower/uppercase characters or complete utter tosh sometimes, is more common than it should be. I ripped a Lee Ann Womack CD the other day and track 7 was named as 'Rainy Day Song' by FreeDB. It's a song I know well, co-written by Andrew Combs and Brent Cobb - it's actually called 'Shine on Rainy Day' Numpties!
Be careful with things like '&' and 'and', for example Danny and the Champions of the World or Danny & the Champions of the World with give you two artist folders.
Again, I'm sure you're much like Chris and I, stuff has to be correct or it bugs the shit out of me. I get rips from said friend occasionally and they are rarely 100% correct. But he's awful when it comes to anything IT/PC related and just bungs a CD into dBpoweramp and accepts whatever it produces
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Post by MartinT on Jun 28, 2018 13:19:18 GMT
I've setup EAC with FLAC on my work machine and did a test rip of a CD I found of Emma Kirkby (which should be worth listening to). I used a similar naming string to both of yours except using - rather than \ as a delimiter. I then uploaded the tracks and album artwork to my WD Cloud NAS at home(!) I shall test it all later
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