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Post by John on Feb 15, 2017 20:48:03 GMT
A member has raised a important question about how much our expectations influnce what we hear.
I have my own thoughts that I will share later once the debate gets going
All I will say at this stage is the brain certainly can play tricks with perception but how far is this going in our own listening experience and muiscal journey?
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Post by Sovereign on Feb 15, 2017 21:10:46 GMT
In the very early days I used to buy loads of RA kit.
Back in those days I definitely expected an improvement, although if I didn't hear anything, then I would call them and tell them and return item if needs be. But that was rare to be honest as most of it, say 90% worked for me.
Now that I seem to make most of my kit, if its good its good, if not I don't need to convince myself otherwise.
It's hard to say what others expect and don't expect, these days many of us buy online and the customer is much more in the driving seat, and there isn't the awkwardness of taking a product back to a local dealer. I may be wrong here as I am many years out of the local dealer / relationship loop.
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Post by Mr Whippy on Feb 15, 2017 21:53:03 GMT
I adopt a Zen Buddhist position (Not easy these days. Not with my back.): Expect - NOTHING.
Must admit, I don't think it's something I use to experience when I had the energy to tweak and what have you. I just kept an open mind and would repeat an investigation a number of times. At times, when a difference would be noticed I would ask myself: Why do I get A? If it's all in my head, then why don't I get B, which might be more predictable or imagined? Which, to my mind, told me I was actually hearing a real difference, and not just an imaginary one.
Must admit, I was guilty of it when I replaced the arm on an AR XAU for an ADC ALT 1. But all (and I mean ALL) the expectation bias in the world, couldn't convince me that it was an improvement over the original.
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Post by MartinT on Feb 15, 2017 22:32:33 GMT
There is only expectation bias if you let it pollute your thoughts. Always expect nothing and just listen. Over time, you will know and you really can't kid yourself one way or the other. I have never kept anything in my system that didn't make a positive difference. I have bought a few components that didn't do it for me and I sold them on.
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Post by ChrisB on Feb 15, 2017 22:34:04 GMT
Lickety-split?
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Post by MartinT on Feb 15, 2017 23:18:56 GMT
Oh yes!
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Post by Chris on Feb 15, 2017 23:30:43 GMT
I've expected a few bits n bobs to be great and they weren't. I now carry a highly sceptical attitude and I really can't believe some of the prices for components that make tiny marginal differences.
On a positive note there are components out there that really are very,very good and having no expectation bias can be very enlightening!
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Post by Slinger on Feb 16, 2017 1:42:01 GMT
I've started putting together a little system based on a two input Class D, some things from China that glow (and I don't mean my socks) and zero expertise. I have no idea what to expect, but it's fun finding out.
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Post by zippy on Feb 16, 2017 8:48:27 GMT
What's the opposite of 'expectation bias' ? Whenever I've bought something new I always have the feeling in my mind that I could have got something better, or the same thing cheaper.  |
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Post by julesd68 on Feb 16, 2017 10:18:35 GMT
I generally have low expectations of new purchases so I can be pleasantly surprised...
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Post by MartinT on Feb 16, 2017 10:35:12 GMT
Whenever I've bought something new I always have the feeling in my mind that I could have got something better, or the same thing cheaper. Do better research. Never look at prices after buying something.  |
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Post by MikeMusic on Feb 16, 2017 14:17:44 GMT
For about the past couple of years I listen to the system as is and say it cannot get much better than that.
When I plug in the new bit I am usually very pleasantly surprised that the sound can and does get better.
Staggers me how much improvement there is available
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Post by Sovereign on Feb 16, 2017 14:49:22 GMT
I bought some new to me vintage TESLA 15" drivers, they are not that well known but for those that do know about them they are meant to be the the absolute in terms of bass drivers. When I received a huge box from Czech Rep. I was really excited and I expected to be blown away by the new drivers. Well I wasn't. But over the next week or so I began to realise what these drivers were doing, all the upgrade I was hoping for was there, it just presented itself differently than I expected, probably far more accurately than the mass produced based drivers that I was so familiar with.
I don't know what all this is called, or what you make of it. But what I do know is the ear / brain relationship is a funny thing. Once I chilled out and began to enjoy the music rather than looking for the upgrade I really realised how bass instruments now seem to breathe through my system and I am entirely satisfied with my new purchase .
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Post by Mr Whippy on Feb 16, 2017 16:23:14 GMT
Forgot about CD. I WAS expecting GREAT THINGS. But then, - weren't we all?
Yes, there was the expectation of being pinned to chair by the dynamics. Internal organs lacerated by octaves of LF information. Ears aurally assaulted by a wealth of detail and information retrieval.
It never happened. It never happened.
And then there was the REMASTERED CD. Better than the original. For a while, I did used to get a bit of an adrenalin rush purchasing such a title, not able to wait to get home, convincing myself I'd be in for some wondrous sonic delight.
It never happened. It never happened. And it was at this point that my audio expectation candle - burnt it's wick out.
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Post by John on Feb 16, 2017 17:19:11 GMT
I don't know what all this is called, or what you make of it. But what I do know is the ear / brain relationship is a funny thing. Once I chilled out and began to enjoy the music rather than looking for the upgrade I really realised how bass instruments now seem to breathe through my system and I am entirely satisfied with my new purchase . Yes totally agree what we percieve is not always what we hear as the brain can compensate and can take awhile to adapt to a new presentation |
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Post by MartinT on Feb 17, 2017 7:12:57 GMT
Yes, there was the expectation of being pinned to chair by the dynamics. Internal organs lacerated by octaves of LF information. Ears aurally assaulted by a wealth of detail and information retrieval. It never happened. It never happened. Hah! It took a long time for CD replay to become acceptable, and our systems have progressed into being more neutral (less vinyl oriented) to get the best from CD. I wouldn't be without either format now, both can achieve staggering heights (I'm not sure my internal organs have been lacerated, though - rearranged, perhaps). |
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Post by davidf on Feb 17, 2017 8:47:34 GMT
The only thing I don't buy about expectation bias, is that for some strange reason, it only seems to work when you're trying out more expensive stuff...  I remember about 13 years ago I was using some flat QED cable with KEF Reference 4.2s (because it was flat enough to go under the carpet). I had a chance to buy, very reasonably, some Townshend Isolda cable, which was much more expensive than the £15/m QED. Of course, I expected it to sound better, basing things on price, and really wanted to like it because it was a sort of "tweaky" brand. I didn't really hear much difference, so I didn't go for it. Surely expectation bias dictates that I would've loved the cable? So for me, some people are prone to this, but if you're just honest with yourself, I don't see why it should affect your choices. |
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Post by John on Feb 17, 2017 17:08:33 GMT
I had few of expensive equipment that I did not like in my system
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Post by davidf on Feb 17, 2017 18:48:58 GMT
I had few of expensive equipment that I did not like in my system But that's synergy or personal preference isn't it, not necessarily that they did it perform to your expected levels. Or maybe there's a fine line between the two... |
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Post by John on Feb 17, 2017 19:08:18 GMT
Yes agree
But if it expectation Bias existed in thoses examples in theory I should of enjoyed the more expensive kit
Example years ago I tried a few expensive phonostages (£2000 to 4000) I could not live with them in my system. But for someone else they could of worked, and yes they were supposed to match my cartridge
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