|
Post by pinkie on Jan 4, 2017 10:59:55 GMT
My core problem with valves for HiFi is tube rolling. Suggest it, and you have accepted that the device is not about fidelity, high or otherwise. It's about "tuning" a sound. I have no problem with people enjoying that - but it isn't about fidelity, and ultimately I have never found it attracted me enough to want to go that route
I recently had the output tubes on my Fender Blues junior changed (the amp failed - but the replacements are upgraded) and the sound is beautiful now, when I had been browsing the catalogues before it failed. Being able to "create" a sound on a guitar amp makes perfect sense. On a HiFi amp it is a contradiction in terms. I accept that is a bit purist and unrealistic - the idea that every component should be neutral or "nothing". Amplifiers should be "wire with gain". But to start with something tunable is to go down the path of audiophile rather than fidelity. At Pink we always aimed for "neutral" - reproducing the signal with nowt added and nowt taken away. Unachievable of course - but we found that tuning like damping lost detail and dynamics. So we would try for a neutral turntable, arm and cartridge and not a bright cartridge to balance a dull deck. I'm a no tone controls boy too... (except on the guitar amp)
I have heard some lovely valve amps - the SP10 being one I vowed to save up and own when I first heard it. But I have heard some lovely solid state, which are more stable, sit in smaller boxes, run cooler and do the job as well or better.
My friends who know about these things and design and build amps take the view that the circuit (and power supply) define the result - not the components used to achieve them. I have enjoyed their results. I still do.
Power supplies in particular are key in power amps. A good SMPS offers a lot of advantages there. The supply in the AHB2 maintains a constant voltage on the supply rails during audio peaks.
|
|
|
Post by jandl100 on Jan 4, 2017 11:03:20 GMT
My core problem with valves for HiFi is tube rolling. Suggest it, and you have accepted that the device is not about fidelity, high or otherwise. It's about "tuning" a sound. It could (and I suggest is) equally be about getting the most realistic sound you can.
|
|
|
Post by southall1998 on Jan 4, 2017 11:15:18 GMT
I wish I'd heard valve amps with more slam. I thought it might help if I listed the valve amps I've tried so far. Audio Innovarions 300: Exciting with sensitive speakers but limited with everything else. Audio Innovations 500 Nice, smooth, weighty but a bit soft Music Angel EL84: As sweet and silky as thy come but utterly gutless and unreliable Stoetkit: too weedy Apollon Apache EL34: similar to AI500 AVC EL34: Ditto Arion Elektra: Thin, edgy and bad timing. Icon Audio Stereo 20: Zzzzzzzzzzzzz Puresound A30: Too thin and didn't have any dynamics at higher volumes Edison 12: Lifeless and blurred Audion Sterling KT90 mk1: The best valve amp I've had. Bottomless clarity, sweet as a nut and quite dynamic. Matched my 4 NVa A40s for dynamics and edged them for clarity and sweetness. Audion Sterling KT120 mk2: Fatter and a bit duller than its earlier and cheaper sibling, but still not bad. A mate had a tatty Pye Mozart that I loved. Very similar to my first Audion, I reckon but still not a dynamics powerhouse. i didn't know you had an Icon Audio Stereo 20 (EL-84). Did you find it too warm sounding in your system? S.
|
|
|
Post by Clive on Jan 4, 2017 11:24:26 GMT
My core problem with valves for HiFi is tube rolling. Suggest it, and you have accepted that the device is not about fidelity, high or otherwise. It's about "tuning" a sound. I have no problem with people enjoying that - but it isn't about fidelity, and ultimately I have never found it attracted me enough to want to go that route The same is true to some extent for SS. ie the difference between an LT317 and a generic 317. There are plenty of differences between resistors and capacitors used in SS amps too. Quite a lot of the differences due to tube rolling are subtle and are often due to the differences in behaviour at the operating point the amp is setup for. People talk about the differences between rectifiers putting this down to the tube but changing rectifier type can make a very significant difference to the voltage the amp sees, eg by 50V! Thereby changing the operating points for the tubes in the whole amp. The problem going down the route of system fidelity being the holy grail is what about the room? Your system may measure "perfectly" but the room then distorts the sound. It's useful having some way to tailor the sound whether this be dsp, room treatment, tube selection, speaker selection, preamp etc. Messing with tubes is just another variable.
|
|
|
Post by Clive on Jan 4, 2017 11:25:36 GMT
My core problem with valves for HiFi is tube rolling. Suggest it, and you have accepted that the device is not about fidelity, high or otherwise. It's about "tuning" a sound. It could (and I suggest is) equally be about getting the most realistic sound you can. or creating the best illusion you can...which is very close to the same thing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 12:04:57 GMT
I wish I'd heard valve amps with more slam. I thought it might help if I listed the valve amps I've tried so far. Audio Innovarions 300: Exciting with sensitive speakers but limited with everything else. Audio Innovations 500 Nice, smooth, weighty but a bit soft Music Angel EL84: As sweet and silky as thy come but utterly gutless and unreliable Stoetkit: too weedy Apollon Apache EL34: similar to AI500 AVC EL34: Ditto Arion Elektra: Thin, edgy and bad timing. Icon Audio Stereo 20: Zzzzzzzzzzzzz Puresound A30: Too thin and didn't have any dynamics at higher volumes Edison 12: Lifeless and blurred Audion Sterling KT90 mk1: The best valve amp I've had. Bottomless clarity, sweet as a nut and quite dynamic. Matched my 4 NVa A40s for dynamics and edged them for clarity and sweetness. Audion Sterling KT120 mk2: Fatter and a bit duller than its earlier and cheaper sibling, but still not bad. A mate had a tatty Pye Mozart that I loved. Very similar to my first Audion, I reckon but still not a dynamics powerhouse. i didn't know you had an Icon Audio Stereo 20 (EL-84). Did you find it too warm sounding in your system? S. I think it was the 20 plus. It had a soft start, I recall. I had it on approval but I didn't approve it was perfect if you wanted a hot cup of cocoa and something to get you off to sleep.
|
|
|
Post by southall1998 on Jan 4, 2017 12:22:11 GMT
20 plus? Did it use EL-84? (Small skinny valve)
S.
|
|
|
Post by jandl100 on Jan 4, 2017 12:23:37 GMT
Hmm. It seems that not all el84 amps are created equal! I think I've had 3, but that Icon sounds like one to avoid.
|
|
|
Post by southall1998 on Jan 4, 2017 12:30:40 GMT
Hmm. It seems that not all el84 amps are created equal! I think I've had 3, but that Icon sounds like one to avoid. Why should everyone avoid it! Some people will love it's sound presentation. S.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 12:38:39 GMT
I think I'm pretty sensitive to lack of drive and speed. If it doesn't stimulate me, I tend to switch off pretty quickly. I wasn't even aware it was an EL84 amp. It didn't stay long enough for me to look at it properly. Maybe the valves or bias weren't all they should be.
|
|
|
Post by southall1998 on Jan 4, 2017 12:43:21 GMT
If it's the Icon Audio Stereo 20PP. Then it requires no bias adjustments.
S.
|
|
|
Post by pre65 on Jan 4, 2017 12:44:25 GMT
Hmm. It seems that not all el84 amps are created equal! I think I've had 3, but that Icon sounds like one to avoid. Why should everyone avoid it! Some people will love it's sound presentation. S. There are many and various sounds from individual components, and when you take everything into account (room mode + cables etc) it can be quite a job to get "synergy". One could argue that people who find that "synergie" stop searching and then just enjoy the music. Others spend a lifetime swapping components over and over (and over again) and never seem satisfied, always looking for that little bit extra. I'm not saying either approach is best, but the former can be kinder to the wallet.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 12:55:05 GMT
And the soul!
|
|
|
Post by jandl100 on Jan 4, 2017 13:39:12 GMT
Hmm. It seems that not all el84 amps are created equal! I think I've had 3, but that Icon sounds like one to avoid. Why should everyone avoid it! Some people will love it's sound presentation. S. Of course. But I suspect it would be one for me to avoid.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Jan 4, 2017 13:51:44 GMT
I'm a valve fan but I do agree they need a wee bit fettling. I've two valve amps and both have been customised. I like the realistic presentation I get - my favourite setup is my AVC EL34 with 6CA7 valves hooked up to my AN Ks. I'm utterly sold on this combo and love it dearly due to the accuracy of the presentation. Compared to my AR amp it just seems to dig out more emotion and realism from the music.
Now my experience in these things is rather limited but my tuppence worth is that valves are better but need good synergy to sound their best.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2017 13:54:04 GMT
I think that AVC is actually a bit of a wolf in sleeps clothing. If it had a fancy name, it would be much more talked about and also more expensive.
|
|
|
Post by Chris on Jan 4, 2017 14:02:05 GMT
Agree wholeheartedly there Sir.
|
|
|
Post by Greg on Jan 5, 2017 8:19:15 GMT
All my valve amps have been World Audio Design Kits which I have built myself, my last one being a bit of a scratch build because I built a clone of their 300B push pull intergrated circa 1995. See my avatar. I have had an EL84 push pull, a KT88 push pull, a 2A3 parallel single ended and have also their valve based phono stage and pre amp which I converted to cathode follower design because I did not require gain in the pre section. For a short while I owned a Mr Laing Chinese import 211 which I found rather sloppy in presentations.
I have never considered any of my amps to present a warm or woolly sound and my favourites have been the 2A3 which I still have and the 300B. Although these have different topography, they both deliver good clean fully extended sound with no limitations in the low bass (which can absolutely thunder, think collapse of the wall in the Pink Floyd live recording) or very high treble. I have been a very committed valve amp user for many years until very recently. I got into kit building because of their affordability and my taste for high end sound. The EL84 amp being the baby of the pack and the most affordable is a bit of a giant killer. It doesn't have the slam and authority of the bigger amps but it is beautifully musical and an affordable entry valve amp I would recommend.
It was a major change for me to change to SS and a Devialet at that, which rather indicates how highly I regard the capabilities of this Mark.
Ant is absolutely right. The power supply section is key to getting good performance from a valve amp.
|
|
|
Post by Sovereign on Jan 5, 2017 8:45:06 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Greg on Jan 5, 2017 8:56:23 GMT
Well, difficult to assess, but you have the benefit of the EL84 in SE mode so a purer sound than a PSE and if your panel speakers are typical and of high sensitivity it should work well. Don't expect slam but look forward to an engaging musical sound. Alan's reputation is good. I doubt he would build a duffer.
|
|