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Post by dsjr on Jan 6, 2016 14:42:38 GMT
See, I don't like excess 'bloated' warmth in a vinyl player 'system' but the Doc's SPU did its best to win me over, as there's a form of rock-solid stability and very low background noise with a modern tipped SPU in a suitable tonearm. I agree about the AT moving coils being on the 'lean' side, but I'd like to mention two aspects please. Firstly, many vinyl cuts have reduced bass to save 'land' on each side - the deeper and more powerful the bass, the bigger the 'wiggles' and the less time per side is available. The second thing was alluded to elsewhere, but seems to make sense, in that Japanese vinyl is reprtedly a slightly different formulation to 'ours,' and Japanese pressings sound 'duller' than equivalent European or US ones - apparently - so therefore this could explain the 'treble assertiveness' in so many Japanese cartridges. Maybe this second fact is a load of bunkum, but so many mid price Jap moving coil cartridges have this lean and crisp characteristic, it makes you wonder...
P.S. Dropping the rear of the arm one or two mm does no harm at all as so many cartridges, even now I believe from reviews, increase the rake-angle a little too much, rather than not give enough. Therefore, dropping the arm, or having a Rega RB look down at the back, isn't going to do any harm at all ime...
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Post by julesd68 on Jan 6, 2016 18:28:17 GMT
I moved on from a Lentek to an RFC MC1, but there is admittedly quite a difference in price Yes if I had the 500 spare I am sure I would be giving Paul's SUT a go...
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Post by julesd68 on Jan 6, 2016 18:34:39 GMT
More listening, more thoughts... On well recorded pop lps and 12"s I think the AT has the edge. Hard Rock lps much prefer the Garrott which has more bite in the guitars. Classical I'm not sure yet - the AT did a great job with my new Bach double violin lp..
Make no mistake, it's an excellent cart but the question is, what is the true potential ... I aim to try a decent enough SUT which will at least be quieter than the Lentek. Once I've done this I will decide whether to keep it.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 6, 2016 20:33:20 GMT
Try a Bob's Devices SUT, Jules. They sound good and don't cost the Earth.
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Post by nrg on Jan 6, 2016 21:52:02 GMT
OK chaps I've had the chance to do a proper session with a variety of music now. What I like about this cart - - resolution and clarity - the instruments can appear to sound somewhat 'purer' - doesn't get flustered by any recording What I don't like - - lacking some warmth compared to my Garrott, I would like a touch more - lacking bass weight compared to my Garrott. Dropping the arm down a touch has helped, but still feels a little light in this area - not as kind to surface noise as the Garrott What is clear is that I need to judge this cart on its full potential, so the question is how much better it can sound with an upgraded head amp or SUT. The Lentek is fantastic for the money, but possibly not quite good enough in my system as it stands. I won't know until I try the cart with something else. If anyone has any advice about what head amps or SUTs would be a step up (excuse the pun) without breaking the bank, that would be most helpful. If anyone has one that I might be able to borrow for comparison that would be most fab ... I've just bought a 33PTG/II for my recently acquired Logic Gemini, it has about 11 hrs on it and improving all the time. It has great resolution and clarity and tracks really well as you say. However, I'm finding the bass taught and with great depth., maybe it is the Lentek?...however, it can come across a bit lean but I think it is just neutral in presentation which may take a bit of getting used to. Also, Ive found it's very sensitive to setup. It can highlight surface noise and sibilance if it is not setup just so. Dropping the arm a touch helps as you have found but I also found loading the cart at 50ohm helps tame the top end a touch. My setup is all valve, the phono stage a heavily modified WAD unit and the system can resolve bass lines very well. HTH
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Post by nrg on Jan 6, 2016 21:54:32 GMT
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Post by julesd68 on Jan 6, 2016 22:35:24 GMT
OK chaps I've had the chance to do a proper session with a variety of music now. What I like about this cart - - resolution and clarity - the instruments can appear to sound somewhat 'purer' - doesn't get flustered by any recording What I don't like - - lacking some warmth compared to my Garrott, I would like a touch more - lacking bass weight compared to my Garrott. Dropping the arm down a touch has helped, but still feels a little light in this area - not as kind to surface noise as the Garrott What is clear is that I need to judge this cart on its full potential, so the question is how much better it can sound with an upgraded head amp or SUT. The Lentek is fantastic for the money, but possibly not quite good enough in my system as it stands. I won't know until I try the cart with something else. If anyone has any advice about what head amps or SUTs would be a step up (excuse the pun) without breaking the bank, that would be most helpful. If anyone has one that I might be able to borrow for comparison that would be most fab ... I've just bought a 33PTG/II for my recently acquired Logic Gemini, it has about 11 hrs on it and improving all the time. It has great resolution and clarity and tracks really well as you say. However, I'm finding the bass taught and with great depth., maybe it is the Lentek?...however, it can come across a bit lean but I think it is just neutral in presentation which may take a bit of getting used to. Also, Ive found it's very sensitive to setup. It can highlight surface noise and sibilance if it is not setup just so. Dropping the arm a touch helps as you have found but I also found loading the cart at 50ohm helps tame the top end a touch. My setup is all valve, the phono stage a heavily modified WAD unit and the system can resolve bass lines very well. HTH Very interesting, thanks for sharing! I would definitely agree that the bass is well defined, but I'd like a bit more depth for sure in my system ... And yes, without a doubt it is essentially neutral which can't be a bad thing. I'm actually pretty happy with the top end - no problem with sibilance, vocals are always perfectly reproduced. I'm aiming to experiment with at least a couple of different SUTs so will see if I can eek out even more performance from what is an excellent cart for sure.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 7, 2016 6:38:16 GMT
Also, Ive found it's very sensitive to setup. It can highlight surface noise and sibilance if it is not setup just so. Dropping the arm a touch helps as you have found but I also found loading the cart at 50ohm helps tame the top end a touch. I've found that 100 ohm loading helps both my AT and Shelter. It's barely noticeable, but over time I hear a greater ease to the music and less stridency.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 7, 2016 6:41:10 GMT
Try a Bob's Devices SUT, Jules. They sound good and don't cost the Earth. Wow, I see they've gone up a LOT in price! I bought a Cinemag for about $400 not so many years ago. May be worth trawling eBay as I think Bob has done rather well with them. He's a nice guy, too.
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Post by ChrisB on Jan 7, 2016 7:20:11 GMT
Yoiks, you aren't kidding. 1200!!
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Post by nrg on Jan 7, 2016 10:19:42 GMT
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Post by nrg on Jan 7, 2016 10:24:08 GMT
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Post by MartinT on Jan 7, 2016 10:50:17 GMT
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Post by dsjr on Jan 7, 2016 11:32:51 GMT
Somewhere in the loft I have an aluminium project box, fitted with phonos and even a damping circuit made up if necessary, especially for a pair of Sowter transformers, who are just down the road in Ipswich. Other things just got in the way unfortunately...
Don't forget the Albarry MC head amp for £500 either, which may work better in certain circumstances I believe.
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Post by julesd68 on Jan 9, 2016 17:19:14 GMT
Something rather rare and special has turned up chez moi - a Fidelity Research SUT.
It's small, silver and shiny. Will report back after extended demo but 30 seconds told me I was starting to hear something closer to the true potential of the cart ...
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Post by ChrisB on Jan 9, 2016 17:21:56 GMT
The little square thing with a single big knob on the front? Nice!
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Post by julesd68 on Jan 9, 2016 17:23:50 GMT
Oh yes. It's a cutie ... one of Japan's finest.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2016 11:08:23 GMT
I think those who find the 33PTG lacking in warmth and bass weight should consider the 33EV. AT actually suggest these as providing alternative presentations. A little less top end stridency is welcome which I found going from the OC9MLII. Bass is much improved. I don't think there is any downside in detail and tracking ability going to an elliptical tip. In fact I found IGD (probably groove damage) on a couple of problem discs all but disappeared. BTW AT cartridges should have at least 100 ohm loading - I found increasing to 150 ohm made the 33EV sound a little more open.
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Post by julesd68 on Jan 12, 2016 9:48:09 GMT
Here is a review of the AT33PTG/II with my new Fidelity Research FRT-3 SUT. The first thing you notice about the SUT is how you don’t notice it, with its total lack of noise, something that can't be said for the Lentek … Putting on some music it is soon clear that this combo sets a whole new level of transparency in my system. It’s as though the veils of a thousand vestal virgins have all been lifted at the same time. Starting off with the remarkable ATR Mastercut recording of Kate Bush’s ‘Lionheart’, it’s sensationally vivid, presenting a huge and spacious soundstage. The sense of realism is almost palpable and the treble is so airy, with vocals that have no hint of sibilance or harshness; Kate sounds more seductive than ever. Remarkably, the bass goes just SOOO much deeper than before and is rich and well defined. Never heard this from my Tannoys previously. Moving on to classical I decided to give it the acid test of three different recordings from DG, HMV and Decca, to see how it manages their individual ‘house sounds’. The strings on my new Oistrach Bach concerto re-release on DG are reproduced with an absolutely startling clarity. At times this can veer into stridency at higher volumes, but this is what I would expect from DG! The more neutral recording of Rachmaninov 3 with Previn on HMV is impeccably balanced. Some wonderful swooping dynamics, the like of which I have never heard on my system. Now I really am starting to hear details in the recording which up to now have been hidden. I’m convinced this is the most revealing my system has ever been. Next up is Tchaikovsky violin concerto with Campoli on Decca. The predictably warmer violin tone is sweetly portrayed, but without being syrupy or sounding old-fashioned. I could feel the double basses in my hands and feet, it really is a potent & visceral experience - very satisfying! To finish the session I played Black Sabbath’s ‘Master of Reality’. The extra bass was most welcome again here, and the combo gave me a sense of attack and urgency that had been sorely missing with the Lentek, whilst respectable on pop and classical, was flatter and too polite sounding with heavy rock. So this combo passes with flying colours on all the music I listen to. I will add that it is utterly revealing of source material so some lp’s might be a slightly tricky listen, but I’m very happy with that - it means that great recordings are that bit greater than ever before. As it’s digging out that extra bit of detail, I find surface noise is possibly just a fraction higher than with the Garrott, but that’s a small price to pay for this amount of musical satisfaction. A truly synergistic combination which shows just how good this cart can be.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 12, 2016 10:46:26 GMT
That's a great outcome, Jules. A good SUT can do remarkable things and I'm glad the FR has worked for you. Looks nicely packaged, too.
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