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Post by AlanS on Jan 2, 2016 21:22:35 GMT
I understand Jez's frustration. I also understand why he offends. And there is no benefit or merit in simply giving offence. I would not wish to spoil any forum for anyone enjoying their subjective interpretation of their appreciation of music through their hi-fi in their way. That does not mean I feel it right to denigrate the understanding of those who tackle and understand the technical complexities associated with doing good hifi. I recently asked an expert for technical advice about a forum post I strongly suspected was not right. This individual was prepared to answer my question as a friend but only on condition I didn't mention his name or any business he was connected with. It is a sad reflection on the relationship between those who have true expertise and the forum where enthusiasts treat them and their achievements with contempt. But I have nearly allowed a well practiced diversionary tactic to succeed. I asked a simple question and supplementary clarification. Several members have posted in the thinly disguised roles as ambassadors from another. That other offers a facility. "ask a designer" So please, in the spirit of friendship, ask that designer for a constructive useful response intended to be understood and not used to express contempt for those less knowledgeable Why is it called balanced mains? What is a balanced connection? How can a balanced connection remove noise on its input? No need for name calling No need for bad feeling. Why are you not using a search engine such as Google, Bing and instead placing an expectation on someone else providing what you ostensibly seek? I have used Bing and found multiple links that should more than enable you to learn and understand. Google may provide more. Really simple seek and ye shall find. Edit: Here is a starter for you www.google.co.uk/#q=balanced+mains perhaps you could have a chat with Russ Andrews for example
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Post by pinkie on Jan 2, 2016 21:41:57 GMT
I understand Jez's frustration. I also understand why he offends. And there is no benefit or merit in simply giving offence. I would not wish to spoil any forum for anyone enjoying their subjective interpretation of their appreciation of music through their hi-fi in their way. That does not mean I feel it right to denigrate the understanding of those who tackle and understand the technical complexities associated with doing good hifi. I recently asked an expert for technical advice about a forum post I strongly suspected was not right. This individual was prepared to answer my question as a friend but only on condition I didn't mention his name or any business he was connected with. It is a sad reflection on the relationship between those who have true expertise and the forum where enthusiasts treat them and their achievements with contempt. But I have nearly allowed a well practiced diversionary tactic to succeed. I asked a simple question and supplementary clarification. Several members have posted in the thinly disguised roles as ambassadors from another. That other offers a facility. "ask a designer" So please, in the spirit of friendship, ask that designer for a constructive useful response intended to be understood and not used to express contempt for those less knowledgeable Why is it called balanced mains? What is a balanced connection? How can a balanced connection remove noise on its input? No need for name calling No need for bad feeling. Why are you not using a search engine such as Google, Bing and instead placing an expectation on someone else providing what you ostensibly seek? I have used Bing and found multiple links that should more than enable you to learn and understand. Google may provide more. Really simple seek and ye shall find. Linky? I thought the idea on forum was to help those asking for information. Are you able to answer a straight question? What is balanced about a balanced mains supply? How do you distinguish the balanced connection from a balanced mains connection with balanced signal connections? Surely the right response is to help those seeking information rather than make cryptic, unhelpful patronising responses?
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Post by MartinT on Jan 2, 2016 21:51:43 GMT
Exactly - balanced mains and balanced connections are two different things with the word 'balanced' in common. What is balanced mains ? What makes it balanced? This isn't a test of my knowledge, Richard, however much you want it to be. They are both balanced in that they are designed to be noise cancelling by design. EDIT: oh yes, I KNOW they cannot remove noise at the input, thank you. Otherwise, they have different problem sets and issues.
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Post by MartinT on Jan 2, 2016 21:59:47 GMT
Funny how people find the reporting of the truth insulting What I am beginning to find most insulting is your ignoring of our findings, which are not down to expectation bias or kidding ourselves or any other insult you may conjure up. In many cases we have heard these improvements as a group, in each other's listening rooms. They are real, so deal with it. What you need to do, if you believe in any kind of service to your customers, is to find the measurements matching up with what we hear and then use them in your designs. Perhaps you should start with just using your ears. So far there is no 'truth' which you have reported, merely down-right refusal to think of us as anything but imbeciles. No wonder you're finding it hard to sell anything - your contempt for your potential customers is palpable!
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Post by MartinT on Jan 2, 2016 22:09:08 GMT
Well, I see that Jez has left the building. In the spirit of friendship, you will be welcome back at any time, Jez. However, please stop thinking that we're morons, you would better off spending your time analysing what it is that is causing the effects we can most clearly hear.
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Post by DaveC on Jan 2, 2016 22:35:52 GMT
. The Pip for example takes a centre tapped transformer to provide +18v -18v into the bridge rectifier. That is a balanced connection. Balanced in what way ?
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Post by Greg on Jan 2, 2016 23:10:23 GMT
. The Pip for example takes a centre tapped transformer to provide +18v -18v into the bridge rectifier. That is a balanced connection. Balanced in what way ? Exactly. Nothing special about such a connection; it's been use by HiFi manufacturers for years. I really have a problem with Pinky's posts. It seems to me they are nothing about any of us learning how to improve our systems and much more about some agenda he seems to be pursuing as a vendetta. I believe he presents questions he already has (in his understanding) answers for and in consequence he is doing nothing more than acting as a Troll. I like it here because generally it is Troll free. Let's keep it that way. I know at times I can rise to the bait and post aggressively, but I'm trying not to on this occasion. It would however be helpful if Pinky returned to his abode under his bridge and allowed us goats (more intelligent than sheep) to cross over, move on and learn with hopefully a bit of accurate information. Please Pinky, give it a rest and stop spoiling things for so many others. Thank you.
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Post by guy on Jan 2, 2016 23:12:45 GMT
I understand Jez's frustration. I also understand why he offends. And there is no benefit or merit in simply giving offence. I would not wish to spoil any forum for anyone enjoying their subjective interpretation of their appreciation of music through their hi-fi in their way. That does not mean I feel it right to denigrate the understanding of those who tackle and understand the technical complexities associated with doing good hifi. I recently asked an expert for technical advice about a forum post I strongly suspected was not right. This individual was prepared to answer my question as a friend but only on condition I didn't mention his name or any business he was connected with. It is a sad reflection on the relationship between those who have true expertise and the forum where enthusiasts treat them and their achievements with contempt. But I have nearly allowed a well practiced diversionary tactic to succeed. I asked a simple question and supplementary clarification. Several members have posted in the thinly disguised roles as ambassadors from another. That other offers a facility. "ask a designer" So please, in the spirit of friendship, ask that designer for a constructive useful response intended to be understood and not used to express contempt for those less knowledgeable Why is it called balanced mains? What is a balanced connection? How can a balanced connection remove noise on its input? No need for name calling No need for bad feeling.
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Post by pre65 on Jan 2, 2016 23:14:58 GMT
Exactly. Nothing special about such a connection; it's been use by HiFi manufacturers for years. I really have a problem with Pinky's posts. It seems to me they are nothing about any of us learning how to improve our systems and much more about some agenda he seems to be pursuing as a vendetta. I believe he presents questions he already has (in his understanding) answers for and in consequence he is doing nothing more than acting as a Troll. I like it here because generally it is Troll free. Let's keep it that way. I know at times I can rise to the bait and post aggressively, but I'm trying not to on this occasion. It would however be helpful if Pinky returned to his abode under his bridge and allowed us goats (more intelligent than sheep) to cross over, move on and learn with hopefully a bit of accurate information. Please Pinky, give it a rest and stop spoiling things for so many others. Thank you. Must admit I share Gregs thoughts on Pinky's motivation.
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Post by ChrisB on Jan 3, 2016 1:10:46 GMT
Of course, this is all old ground being covered again and I think Richard has chewed this bone enough times for it to have become quite tiresome at best and not to mention rather baggage laden, as he has pursued it on 3 forums that I know of. The way the thing works was described back soon after TAS was launched. Richard, it was a thread that you participated in quite extensively, so I feel sure you have read it. However, if you have forgotten then the description remains there to be seen. theaudiostandard.net/post/4294
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Post by DaveC on Jan 3, 2016 9:12:35 GMT
Exactly. Nothing special about such a connection; it's been use by HiFi manufacturers for years. I really have a problem with Pinky's posts. It seems to me they are nothing about any of us learning how to improve our systems and much more about some agenda he seems to be pursuing as a vendetta. I believe he presents questions he already has (in his understanding) answers for and in consequence he is doing nothing more than acting as a Troll. I like it here because generally it is Troll free. Let's keep it that way. I know at times I can rise to the bait and post aggressively, but I'm trying not to on this occasion. It would however be helpful if Pinky returned to his abode under his bridge and allowed us goats (more intelligent than sheep) to cross over, move on and learn with hopefully a bit of accurate information. Please Pinky, give it a rest and stop spoiling things for so many others. Thank you. Remember I talk to potential customers who "read forums and believe them", and then whilst buying something from me "tell me how it is" Often they are completely wrong, but as they read it on a forum they believe it to be completely true. Pinky often talks through his PhD mate and often it is gobbledygook. But his interpretation of balanced in the audio field is just plain wrong and does the cause of HiFi and especially this forum no good at all.
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Post by pinkie on Jan 3, 2016 9:51:42 GMT
Of course, this is all old ground being covered again and I think Richard has chewed this bone enough times for it to have become quite tiresome at best and not to mention rather baggage laden, as he has pursued it on 3 forums that I know of. The way the thing works was described back soon after TAS was launched. Richard, it was a thread that you participated in quite extensively, so I feel sure you have read it. However, if you have forgotten then the description remains there to be seen. theaudiostandard.net/post/4294Thanks Chris That is exactly what I was looking for and searching the forum with "mains regenerator balanced" failed to locate it for me. I was starting to think the thread had been deleted I am beginning to regret getting involved again, because I am not really that interested. I just don't like being bullied off a subject. I should really take my PHD friends primary advice of "let them kill themselves if they want to". I think the bone chewed last time was almost exclusively (the more important) issue that whatever a Balanced Power Supply does, it does it at the expense of compromising electrical safety, and therefore you need a damn good reason for using it, and a very clear understanding of what those safety compromises are. I have not been pursuing that this time, and have no intention of doing so. I mention it only to distinguish which bone is being chewed. Namely the question I am asking this time - which is "So what is a balanced power supply supposed to do" and specifically the balanced bit. It seems to me there is some confusion - and it is surely a good thing for a forum to try to clear up misunderstandings of factual points and misrepresentations of technology. I think the problem is the discussion gets hijacked by 2 re-interpretations of the question and its motives. THe first is the interpretation "I want to bash NVA brand". That is not my intention. I have nothing against the brand. i would buy NVA cables which I think are well made and good value - the obvious candidates, emissaries from HFS have posted here at the probable behest of their master (I haven't bothered to look - but like a sail shows you the wind, posts from certain individuals here show you their direction. We discussed this privately Chris) The 2nd is "as an objectivist dismissal of subjective differences reported". Again I have stated quite clearly that using a Balanced Power Supply could change the way equipment sounds. If the discussion stopped there - there would be nothing to discuss. But this forum , and NVA in their advert, describe HOW Balanced Power changes the sound. And I think that description, is at best capable of misinterpretation, and arguably outright untrue. You have very kindly provided the link to that definition. The definition supplied in your link was Balanced mains basically converts this to a split rail supply with a centre tap (0v) as earth, so as with all signal or voltage balancing (like a noise cancelling headphone) it removes noise and distortion from the mains. This is due to the distortion and noise being present on both legs of the split rail but one side is 180deg out of phase with the other so they effectively cancel each other out, a very simple solution.
The bit in bold appears to contradict Martin T's original statement that "Balanced Power and Balanced Audio connections are completely different". I believe an accurate definition is “A balanced circuit is a two-conductor circuit in which both conductors and all circuits connected to them have the same impedance with respect to ground and to all other conductors. The purpose of balancing is to make the noise pickup equal in both conductors, in which case it will be a common-mode signal which can be made to cancel out in the load.” But I am happy, for the moment, to take Richard Dunns simplified definition in bold in the quote above, which matches the "explanation" I offered in the video link earlier. What is plain, if this definition is correct, is that any noise cancelling (note NOT "CLEANING") relates to noise which is added to the connection. Again, as Martin T now appears to acknowledge - this balanced connection, and a Balanced Power Supply CANNOT REMOVE NOISE ON THE INPUT TO THAT CONNECTION. So all the noise on the mains, whizzing round the cables in your walls, WILL NOT BE REMOVED or CLEANED by a Balanced Power Supply. This appears to contradict this statement in the same quote from RIchard Dunns post The units definitely work and interestingly not only clean up the mains but seem to consistently open up the music. Interestingly in parallel there is another way of basically getting the same end result called balanced mains. Balanced mains basically converts this to a split rail supply with a centre tap (0v) as earth, so as with all signal or voltage balancing (like a noise cancelling headphone) it removes noise and distortion from the mains.
Even in isolation this claim would appear to suggest that Balanced Mains, working in the way described of a balanced connection - "Cleans mains" - which must mean "removes noise from its input". But this post was not made in isolation. It followed a series of graphs posted by Martin T which showed how his mains regenerator cleaned the mains, and specifically said it did the same thing in a different way. I am confused by the apparant contradiction. Separately, in another post, I have somthing to say about "like a noise-cancelling headphone")
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Post by MartinT on Jan 3, 2016 10:21:25 GMT
Again, as Martin T now appears to acknowledge - this balanced connection, and a Balanced Power Supply CANNOT REMOVE NOISE ON THE INPUT TO THAT CONNECTION. So all the noise on the mains, whizzing round the cables in your walls, WILL NOT BE REMOVED or CLEANED by a Balanced Power Supply. Whoa there, please do not quote me out of context. I said the effect of balancing cannot remove noise being input into the system, it can only cancel noise picked up by the system. but that's not the whole story. Running a BMU clearly does remove some of the noise, so there is more going on and I have already suggested that the efficiency of the transformer coupling may be dramatically lower at high frequencies, thus filtering out RFI. There is also the issue of magnetic storage, which may explain why dynamics and impact are improved when using a BMU. It's complex. And what's all this about electrical safety? Why introduce this into a thread which is not at all about safety?
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Post by DaveC on Jan 3, 2016 10:39:17 GMT
. The Pip for example takes a centre tapped transformer to provide +18v -18v into the bridge rectifier. That is a balanced connection. Balanced in what way ? Pinkie, would, could you answer this before going off at a tangent please ?
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Post by dvh on Jan 3, 2016 11:19:05 GMT
The sound of an axe being ground is drowning out the sound of a barrel being scraped. An example of noise-cancelling in practice!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2016 12:47:09 GMT
The sound of an axe being ground is drowning out the sound of a barrel being scraped. An example of noise-cancelling in practice! Well said !
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Post by dsjr on Jan 3, 2016 13:35:22 GMT
"let them kill themselves if they want to".
Sorry, I have to take this up again. It's been shown that if a BMU goes awry inside, either the fuse in the master mains plug blows or the consumer unit trips, the body of the BMU being Perspex posing no safety threat at all.
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Post by pinkie on Jan 3, 2016 13:41:41 GMT
Again, as Martin T now appears to acknowledge - this balanced connection, and a Balanced Power Supply CANNOT REMOVE NOISE ON THE INPUT TO THAT CONNECTION. So all the noise on the mains, whizzing round the cables in your walls, WILL NOT BE REMOVED or CLEANED by a Balanced Power Supply. And what's all this about electrical safety? Why introduce this into a thread which is not at all about safety? To distinguish the bone currently being chewed from the one previously being chewed
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Post by pinkie on Jan 3, 2016 13:42:36 GMT
Pinkie, would, could you answer this before going off at a tangent please ? Your right. It's not. It's an example of a centre-tapped transformer and adds nothing to this discussion
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Post by pinkie on Jan 3, 2016 13:55:00 GMT
"let them kill themselves if they want to". Sorry, I have to take this up again. It's been shown that if a BMU goes awry inside, either the fuse in the master mains plug blows or the consumer unit trips, the body of the BMU being Perspex posing no safety threat at all. Dave - remember you asked. Its not whether the unit is inherently dangerous. Its whether the way it changes electricity for things plugged into it compromises safety. Its a bit like whether not wearing seat belts is a compromise to safety. I think it is. But if the car I choose not to wear seatbelts in as an Audi, it doesnt make Audi's dangerous. It just means not wearing a seatbelt is compromising safety Whilst a switch might be a convenience item or a safety item I conclude a fuse exists for reasons of safety alone. If an equipment designer decides it is appropriate to protect his equipment with a fuse, whether an internal case fuse or a recommendation that the appliance should only be used with a 3 amp cartridge fuse in the mains plug that is for safety reasons. Connecting it up without a fuse, say just with a metal bar instead compromises safety. Putting a voltage on the blue wire - the neutral rail - where the equipment designer didn't expect it to be, and so didn't put any fuses, compromises safety That has nothing to do with how inherently safe the BMU as a device is in isolation. Its about changing the electricity that is experienced by the things plugged into it. Its a bit like one could design a transformer with appropriate windings to supply 1000v instead of 240v. The transformer could be in a perspex box and bomb proof - but supplying 1000v to a device expecting 240v would compromise safety. Like any transformer a BMU or any other BPS also prevents a fault on a device plugged into it (an earth leak type fault - such as potentially a human electrocution) from tripping the RCD on the household consumer unit. Since current wiring regulation insist that the electricity in a house must be protected by RCD's on the consumer unit, I consider that a device which renders that protection inoperative for anything plugged into it compromises safety. It's not saying the unit is inherently dangerous. Just what it does to consumer unit RCD's and connected equipment fuse arrangements interferes with those safety measures in a way which amounts to compromising safety Like choosing not to wear a seatbelt. Not a certificate of instant death. But a significant identifiable increase in risk
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