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Post by pinkie on Jan 2, 2016 17:30:41 GMT
I would be far more interested in an amp that had balanced mains built into it. Dropping even £320 for an Airlink just doesn't appeal. Extra boxes just don't work for me I'm afraid, especially such ugly ones. Many amps effectively do. The Pip for example takes a centre tapped transformer to provide +18v -18v into the bridge rectifier. That is a balanced connection. I am a bit pissed atm after suffering West Ham thumping Liverpool, but will return to continue asking the question, until someone provides an answer which makes sense to me What aspect of balanced cancels the noise on the input -as claimed? (I should mention I have asked a guy with a masters and Phd in the subject who worked for an extended period at Essex University on active noise cancellation technology, and he is unable to provide an explanation as to how balanced can achieve that claim). I am not looking for partisan name calling. But a simple technical explanation which would get a pass in a University exam. No trade secrets How can a balanced connection remove noise from the input?
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Post by pinkie on Jan 2, 2016 17:34:48 GMT
Exactly - balanced mains and balanced connections are two different things with the word 'balanced' in common. Are you absolutely sure? You don't want me to start posting links to claims on this forum, by the designer of a much discussed Balanced Mains Device. Ok Martin - please explain to me. Why is Balanced mains, called balanced mains. Not by NVA - but by all the other manufacturers of such devices What is balanced mains ? What makes it balanced?
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Post by pinkie on Jan 2, 2016 17:36:32 GMT
The question about balanced mains and the question about a balanced connection are different and require difference answers. A balanced signal cable is part of a system which uses differenct electrical circuits to treat the signal and cannot be treated separately from that system. You can't plug a balanced cable into an unbalanced socket (physical connection differences notwithstanding) without using an signal converter - a balun. Balance Mains converts N=0vAC and L=240vAC to N=-120v and L=+120vAC via two coils from a transformer. Since the differential between N and L is still 240vAC, it can be used by anything, within the design tolerance of the transformer itself, which requires a 240 vAC electrical input. A balance mains converter is logically separate from the electrical system it feeds. So why in response to my question about balanced mains did you supply a link to balanced connections? (Its alright Terry - you were right with that post - they are the same)
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Post by John on Jan 2, 2016 17:44:34 GMT
Funny how people find the reporting of the truth insulting.... I guess the tailor who made the emperors new clothes was pretty pissed off when the little boy shouted "look, the emperors naked!".... I suggest you look at yourself yet again and how you communicate.
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Post by pre65 on Jan 2, 2016 17:56:58 GMT
Funny how people find the reporting of the truth insulting.... I guess the tailor who made the emperors new clothes was pretty pissed off when the little boy shouted "look, the emperors naked!".... I suggest you look at yourself as yet again and how you communicate. I'm not sure how to word this, because I think it's more to do with Jez having an inflated ego, and not happy with his lack of recognition as (wanting to be) one of the greats in audio design.
I find his attitude totally patronising.
I don't mind him having his views, just the way they are aired.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2016 18:02:58 GMT
Jez, I tried, thought I could hear a subtle improvement IN MY SITUATION, took it out and over a couple of days missed it's presence, so put it back! I agree - and shall be subjected to similar at the Harbeth factory sometime in the summer - that precise level matching removes a lot of so-called differences from the equation, but just sometimes, these subtle (in my case) differences can be beneficial and additive to musical satisfaction. Yes, I raised my eyebrows to the fact that MartinT has a £4.5k mains regenerator in his system, but he's shown that his mains isn't very good and as he can afford it, I reckon his regenerator is probably the most important thing in his setup, as it would even give a little low powered Denon or Onkyo micro system a far better chance of working better, as their tiny transformers would have a basically 'clean' mains system to operate on and probably couldn't easily absorb any nasties coming in. The BMU is supposed to eliminate DC coming in the supply I'm told...... A BMU isn't complex and any difference it brings about should be easily measurable in terms of elimination or suppression of mains distortion artifacts, so in this case it's not all 'foo' in my opinion and experience. Seriously, whatever you think of the Doc as a person, I can assure you he wouldn't be arsed to make the things if he didn't think that SOME improvement couldn't be heard. I'm now shilling this bloody brand and I apologise for appearing to do so. The BMU doesn't appeal? Don't bother to try one and CERTAINLY don't troll subjects about which you know nothing and show no signs of wanting to learn! Everything you say is technically incorrect. And I, an electronics engineer, am being told " don't troll subjects about which you know nothing and show no signs of wanting to learn!" It could only happen in hi fi Mains quality is completely irrelevant for 90% of people 90% of the time. It's yet more foo. Synchronous motors supplied directly by the mains are an exception as distortion and spikes etc are turned directly into errors in the rotational motion. Hence TT PSU's work. Moderated Keep to the debate
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2016 18:11:37 GMT
Funny how people find the reporting of the truth insulting.... I guess the tailor who made the emperors new clothes was pretty pissed off when the little boy shouted "look, the emperors naked!".... I suggest you look at yourself yet again and how you communicate. John. In response to your PM if you feel like banning me for vocally disagreeing with the party line then go for it... it would say more about yourself and the site in censoring that with which you don't agree than about me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2016 18:15:09 GMT
After that last piece of censorship in moderating my previous post that's me out of here for good.
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Post by Slinger on Jan 2, 2016 18:15:55 GMT
So, if someone offers a "simple" improvement it can't be any good, because any fool can fit it. Conversely if someone else offers a complicated "upgrade" that can only be implemented by an "expert" then it's good? Did I get that right?Sounds like a plug to me, albeit a cheap 13A plug with no sign of Deoxit. No. You provided an example of a strawman argument No, what I was doing was asking if I understood your post correctly whilst keeping the tenor of my post light. If I misunderstood you then the polite thing to do would be to correct my misunderstanding. I'd be grateful therefore if you'd explain for us mere mortals...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2016 18:20:04 GMT
At the end of the day has anyone been persuaded to change their views? I doubt they have and so much bad feeling has come out in the process. Such a pity when it's not a matter of life and death. Can't everyone just agree to disagree and put some relaxing tunes on?
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Post by ChrisB on Jan 2, 2016 18:42:20 GMT
I suggest you look at yourself yet again and how you communicate. John. In response to your PM if you feel like banning me for vocally disagreeing with the party line then go for it... it would say more about yourself and the site in censoring that with which you don't agree than about me. The party line that you have transgressed is the one that says you shouldn't insult fellow members.
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Post by Slinger on Jan 2, 2016 18:46:28 GMT
Oh well, it looks like I'll never get an answer now he's flounced out. C'est la vie.
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Post by ChrisB on Jan 2, 2016 18:47:18 GMT
Did you ever do Young's double-slit experiment in school physics lessons, Richard?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2016 19:21:58 GMT
Just before Christmas I helped installed a fully balanced mains system designed purely to supply the Hifi at the behest of a customer. This was covered from start to finish by installing a dedicated consumer unit fended by a dedicated 100 amp tail from the electric meter, a four way heavy duty garage consumer unit was installed with a 63 amp circuit breaker and 30Ma RCD two 32 amps individual breakers feeding two individual switch less dual sockets with 6mm T&E (non armoured or RA special) feeding a bespoke Airlink 12Kva fully balanced isolation transformer with its our curcuit protection they bloody thing weight around 80kg and took a spot of effort to mount the unit in the loft!
After a lot of effort and having to rewire the taps on the TX as the sparky had not experienced Balanced mains before lol
The customer has a fairly decent system but has appauling mains quality with voltages ranging from 223vac to 251vac along with just over 1Vdc sitting on the supply as well plus a great deal of harmonics due the proximity to the national grid. The Airlink unit he had commissioned also has fairly tight regulation evening out around 232-236vac
Does it work? It did take a while to settle down the windings on that size of TX are substanical.
The most immediate noticeable difference was a major lowering of the noise floor revealing greater inner detail, a more fixed and stable image along with better bass clarity, texture and depth. A worth while upgrade and the customer is more than happy
Total cost was around £1400, do you really need such a large TX proberbly not his system total current draw running at absolute therorectical max is 1.8Kw so head room to spare. Though he did gave a 5Kva version to start with which IMHO just did not sound as good, whether that was down to the electrical size or possible different construction I could not say.
What I would say it took a lot longer to fully sort out as if you gave the slightly earth issue balanced mains will find it simply as the neutral and earth lines a more closely coupled test normal domestic mains
I do not sell AirlInk products do I have no association with them.
There are many ways to improve your mains quality, but do bear in mind that not just voltage fluctuations, DC offset, harmonic ingress and common mode grunge can pollute your supply, they are many ways to address these issues, balanced mains products, mains regenerators, passive filtration but as far as I am aware only two products take into account voltage sag and have large reserve capacitance to take into account up to 15 minutes worth of voltage stabilisation
Personally I do not like mains regenerators (not denying they make a difference) and properly implemented balanced mains is a real ball ache unless you are installing from a new build or a new extension
Mains is the fuel for your system the better the quality of fuel the better the system will respond IMHO
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Post by dsjr on Jan 2, 2016 19:45:48 GMT
Jez, I tried, thought I could hear a subtle improvement IN MY SITUATION, took it out and over a couple of days missed it's presence, so put it back! I agree - and shall be subjected to similar at the Harbeth factory sometime in the summer - that precise level matching removes a lot of so-called differences from the equation, but just sometimes, these subtle (in my case) differences can be beneficial and additive to musical satisfaction. Yes, I raised my eyebrows to the fact that MartinT has a £4.5k mains regenerator in his system, but he's shown that his mains isn't very good and as he can afford it, I reckon his regenerator is probably the most important thing in his setup, as it would even give a little low powered Denon or Onkyo micro system a far better chance of working better, as their tiny transformers would have a basically 'clean' mains system to operate on and probably couldn't easily absorb any nasties coming in. The BMU is supposed to eliminate DC coming in the supply I'm told...... A BMU isn't complex and any difference it brings about should be easily measurable in terms of elimination or suppression of mains distortion artifacts, so in this case it's not all 'foo' in my opinion and experience. Seriously, whatever you think of the Doc as a person, I can assure you he wouldn't be arsed to make the things if he didn't think that SOME improvement couldn't be heard. I'm now shilling this bloody brand and I apologise for appearing to do so. The BMU doesn't appeal? Don't bother to try one and CERTAINLY don't troll subjects about which you know nothing and show no signs of wanting to learn! Everything you say is technically incorrect. And I, an electronics engineer, am being told " don't troll subjects about which you know nothing and show no signs of wanting to learn!" It could only happen in hi fi Mains quality is completely irrelevant for 90% of people 90% of the time. It's yet more foo. Synchronous motors supplied directly by the mains are an exception as distortion and spikes etc are turned directly into errors in the rotational motion. Hence TT PSU's work. Moderated Keep to the debate Jez, FFS I wasn't thinking of you, but others with no electronics knowledge or qualifications at all, but with 'friends' who try to give answers to possibly garbled questions!!!
P.S. Tell a Naim owner of old that mains quality is complete foo. With the deepest respect, I assure you it isn't and my time at KJ W1 in 1998 showed me how a Kimber-wired RA mains distribution block helped improve the sound of big amps in that West End store - and I assure you this difference was very clearly audible and repeatable, the sound being decidedly 'foggy' when these blocks werent in use.
I believe you designed the Alchemist amps years ago? They were good amps as I remember, and I also expect the power supplies you designed for them were indeed mains immune since you're telling us it's foo. I think Paul Miller did enough work on amp testing years ago to show how some designs, for good or bad, ARE sensitive to what's coming in on the mains and presented the pretty graphs to prove it.
This is getting silly now and smacks of the terrible twosome at AVI. There's a quiet and patient, supremely talented electronics engineer in the background who very rarely gets directly involved sadly, and a very loud mouthpiece who then 'presents' the facts as he sees and interprets them on their forum.
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Post by Greg on Jan 2, 2016 20:09:27 GMT
Sorry to break up the thread flow but I want to trial the NVA BMU. With all that has been written, I remain unsure how to be added to the list for this. I have PM'd Kaz asking to be added to the list and await his reply. Am I right that this is the correct procedure?
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Post by orbscure on Jan 2, 2016 20:15:07 GMT
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Post by ChrisB on Jan 2, 2016 20:25:19 GMT
Yes, that will help too, I think, Greg.
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Post by pinkie on Jan 2, 2016 20:57:48 GMT
I understand Jez's frustration. I also understand why he offends. And there is no benefit or merit in simply giving offence. I would not wish to spoil any forum for anyone enjoying their subjective interpretation of their appreciation of music through their hi-fi in their way. That does not mean I feel it right to denigrate the understanding of those who tackle and understand the technical complexities associated with doing good hifi. I recently asked an expert for technical advice about a forum post I strongly suspected was not right. This individual was prepared to answer my question as a friend but only on condition I didn't mention his name or any business he was connected with. It is a sad reflection on the relationship between those who have true expertise and the forum where enthusiasts treat them and their achievements with contempt. But I have nearly allowed a well practiced diversionary tactic to succeed. I asked a simple question and supplementary clarification. Several members have posted in the thinly disguised roles as ambassadors from another. That other offers a facility. "ask a designer" So please, in the spirit of friendship, ask that designer for a constructive useful response intended to be understood and not used to express contempt for those less knowledgeable Why is it called balanced mains? What is a balanced connection? How can a balanced connection remove noise on its input? No need for name calling No need for bad feeling.
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Post by pinkie on Jan 2, 2016 21:08:09 GMT
Did you ever do Young's double-slit experiment in school physics lessons, Richard? No. Sadly. I hated physics at school. My physics teacher was my form mistress, and all I remember is Nora batty stockings and a dull monotone delivery. Subsequently I have found the subject deeply fascinating and regret the wasted opportunity to learn at school. Really great video
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