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Post by MartinT on Nov 12, 2015 8:16:55 GMT
TAS does not exist in isolation and, as hi-fi and music enthusiasts, the Admins and Mods naturally read other websites and forums, some of which we remain members of. It has been suggested elsewhere that "NVA is banned on the other UK forums". We would like to state here for all to see, lest there be any confusion, that this does not apply on this forum.
Some time ago, Richard Dunn of NVA (membership name Dr Bunsen Honeydew) and Marco Pieraccini (membership name Marco), owners of Hi-Fi Subjectivist and The Art of Sound forums respectively, used The Audio Standard forum as a battleground to perpetrate their personal feud. This proved to have a damaging influence on the forum and we felt we had to put a stop to it by separately suspending both members. In each case, it was for a different reason, though the common theme with them was that they each showed a lack of respect for us, for our rules, and most importantly, for their fellow members.
That's all water under the bridge as far as we are concerned, but crucially, we recognise that both of these people are mutually incompatible in any common forum and it would be impossible, in all fairness, to reinstate the one without the other. That is the background.
We wish to make it absolutely clear that we have NEVER banned the discussion of any person or product, including those of NVA. In fact we respect and have enjoyed NVA products and welcome their discussion as we do with any other brand. We operate a minimal censorship policy and try not to interfere with the flow of discussions, provided they remain within the law and do not constitute libel or defamation, or violate our rules.
Every manufacturer and vendor, and the discussion of their products, is welcomed here at TAS as long as respect is shown to our stance on trade activity, which is that we are here for enthusiasts to discuss hi-fi and music and that we do not allow the advertising or overt promotion of product. Individuals who work in the trade may only represent themselves as enthusiasts, though as long as their interests are openly declared, they may have the opportunity to discuss aspects of their activities if fellow members should be interested. We have several members who work in the hi-fi industry who stop well short of breaching that simple rule and yet are able to make significant contributions to discussions, giving us and our members the benefit of what is considerable knowledge and experience. Long may that continue.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2015 9:36:55 GMT
Martin this is a timely statement as an enthusiastic member of HFS and NVA owner (not me) will be operating a loan scheme to try NVA product. He is offering to pay trade fee on other forums (although not strictly trade) but since we don't have trade here I hope he will be allowed to publish information and contact details of this scheme here. Might benefit members of TAS and AOS in trying NVA product as it is deemed unmentionable on certain forums. An unfortunate over reaction to personal differences with Mr Dunne. Unfortunate that he won't be let back unless Marco is allowed as he has at least a host of technical knowledge to contribute if only people who know nowt wouldn't insist on trying to rubbish him.
MODERATION: Comment on past quarrels on other forums removed. (Unwanted baggage)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2015 10:23:21 GMT
NVA is not the first manufacturer to run a loan scheme.
I think a loan scheme is a great way for people to try kit at home from small manufacturers that they are interested in.
You usually have to pay the postage both ways, but you get to hear what it does in your own system/ listening environment.
What could be better than that?
I have already taken advantage of the loan scheme run by Graham Slee on several occasions.
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Post by ChrisB on Nov 12, 2015 13:45:46 GMT
Yes we are aware of the loan scheme Paul, thank you.
The rules for those in the trade are clear and we would have to treat him as being so, but if he can keep within those boundaries, there is no reason why he shouldn't be a valued and respected member of TAS.
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Post by MartinT on Nov 12, 2015 15:10:09 GMT
He would be most welcome to join TAS and answer any technical questions about NVA in the same way as others represent their products. He need only declare his interest and not treat the forum as a hard sell medium.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2015 16:19:56 GMT
There is no selling involved - just making people aware of the loan scheme and what is available. Loans can be organised of forum by email. No obligation to buy anything from NVA but just postage costs. Also I assume anybody loaning equipment is free to report on their experience here.
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Post by MartinT on Nov 12, 2015 16:45:52 GMT
Go ahead and invite him to join, Paul!
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Post by Barry on Nov 12, 2015 23:46:05 GMT
Martin this is a timely statement as an enthusiastic member of HFS and NVA owner (not me) will be operating a loan scheme to try NVA product. He is offering to pay trade fee on other forums (although not strictly trade) but since we don't have trade here I hope he will be allowed to publish information and contact details of this scheme here. Might benefit members of TAS and AOS in trying NVA product as it is deemed unmentionable on certain forums. An unfortunate over reaction to personal differences with Mr Dunne. Unfortunate that he won't be let back unless Marco is allowed as he has at least a host of technical knowledge to contribute if only people who know nowt wouldn't insist on trying to rubbish him. MODERATION: See belowNVA make some fine-sounding audio gear for a very reasonable price. They can do this because they have chosen to eschew any dealership agreements. As such, NVA can only be easily bought through contact via their official website, or through their ‘shop’ on eBay. The loan scheme is thus a very good way for those interested to audition NVA equipment without commitment. MODERATION: Thank you for pointing out the presence of unwanted baggage in Paul's post above Barry. However, the rest of this post must be deleted as it compounds the problem. |
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Post by Slinger on Nov 13, 2015 0:34:02 GMT
If you wish to see the PMs in question I would suggest that you take a look on the HFS forum as the link to them has been published many times there. Your asking "Who is it whom Marco has supposedly "threatened", via PMs? Are they willing to publish the threatening PMs in question? You say you “know for a fact”, if so then divulge details of this fact." might be construed as a request for that information to be published here which probably would be against the forum rules that you seem know by heart, so it's perhaps best if you rescind your request and classicrock doesn't respond to it. I'm not trying to do the mod's job here, but it just seems best to try to nip this in the bud as quickly and painlessly as possible before any possible escalation. If you can't find the link to the PMs please feel free to message me either here or at HFS and I'll be happy to pass it on privately.
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Post by MartinT on Nov 13, 2015 6:34:08 GMT
The background on Marco and Richard's prolonged disagreements was necessary in order to explain our stance in separating Richard the man from NVA the company and why neither are present any longer on TAS. We have no issue with NVA or the discussion of its producs whatsoever.
Regarding the 'criminally outrageous threats', that material was published on the Crossover Network back in 2009 and, had it been actionable libel, it would have been removed long ago. I have no intention of publishing the link here but the material is easily enough found. Should the posts be removed, or proof of a winning libel action be presented to us, then we will of course comply with the law and remove any mention of it. I do not see a single post as 'deliberate and continued trolling' but an interpretation of what has already been published. I am sure that Paul will desist in saying anything more in public.
There is no implied 'right to reply' here at TAS, Richard and Marco's actions resulted in their own inability to be present here, but we are aware that this could escalate so I am saying here that we will not permit any further discussion on the point of Richard and Marco's ongoing warfare. We do, on the other hand, encourage the discussion of open and unbiased debate on manufacturers' products and the futility of banning mention of names in a forum.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2015 10:37:25 GMT
No intention of repeating the information about the PM's from Marco. But just wished to highlight the reason for the problem between Richard and Marco and that some of us have experienced this behaviour and others still do to a lesser degree. Of course this should not reflect on the merits of NVA as a product.
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Post by ChrisB on Nov 18, 2015 8:13:10 GMT
I think we need to clear up what may be a misunderstanding here Paul. As I said in my post earlier in this thread: The part which I have emboldened is important. There is no selling involved - just making people aware of the loan scheme and what is available. Loans can be organised of forum by email. No obligation to buy anything from NVA but just postage costs. Also I assume anybody loaning equipment is free to report on their experience here. Now, the part of your post that I have emboldened is the bit that we have trouble with. We realise that Mr Dunn's representative (RD's word, not mine) doesn't intend to sell NVA gear here but the listing of equipment that is available for loan from the manufacturer can be seen as nothing else but a promotional excercise. The object being, when all is said and done, for NVA to sell more product. RD isn't doing this for the good of his soul! The rep fella may be, but that's not the point - if he chooses to work for a company without taking payment, that's his business and good luck to him! So we must repeat our policy that, if he wants to join TAS as a hi-fi and music enthusiast, then he would be made to be very welcome here. He must openly declare his interest in the business of NVA and he may not overtly promote any products. I think we would allow the use of the pm system to discuss arrangements of equipment loans but only if the other member makes the first contact. We will not tolerate anyone from the trade cold calling members by pm and any suggestion of that occurring would be treated as a very serious breach of our rules. If asked a question in a public area of the forum about loans or individual pieces of equipment, then of course, he can respond in the same way as we allow this of other trade members. I hope that clarifies our position. |
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Post by MartinT on Nov 18, 2015 10:46:52 GMT
Yes, this is important to us. Discussions of any product are welcome. A member may ask anyone with a declared interest in the trade a question and that may be openly responded to and discussed. Owners of said product may, of course, at any time post about the product or write a review. If discussion looks like becoming a potential sale, then please take it to PM or e-mail. This has worked very well so far with our existing members in the trade.
So no lists of equipment, no sales patter, no cold PMs. Thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2015 11:31:13 GMT
I'm not sure if Chris is back peddling or not. While I accept the loan scheme can be viewed as product promotion it is intended to make people aware of a brand that get's no publicity elsewhere and is not being conducted by RD himself. It is not intended that any sales be conducted on the forum. The idea was that a message be left making non HFS members aware of the scheme. If listing items goes too far perhaps a link to the relevant HFS page would be acceptable. Contact with the member concerned would be done via PM to obtain contact details. Any other business can be conducted off forum. Of course interested parties can always join the HFS forum (of which many are not aware due to the attitude of certain other forum owners). I do appreciate your open attitude to this compared to other forums who have an NVA grudge.
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Post by ChrisB on Nov 18, 2015 12:24:33 GMT
No back peddling on my part Paul. Everything I have said on the matter is very clearly set out in the posts above and nothing I've written has been edited or deleted. I am crystal clear in my view of how these matters should be at TAS - it's one of the fundamental principles on which the place exists. We don't profit financially from owning TAS and nor will we allow anyone else to.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2015 16:56:59 GMT
I think what is important is that members who trial an NVA product can report here on their findings and how they compare with other kit they own. It would be interesting to see a comparison between the BMU and a mains regenerator for instance.
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Post by ChrisB on Nov 18, 2015 17:11:34 GMT
Genuine reviews would be welcomed.
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Post by MartinT on Nov 18, 2015 21:14:34 GMT
It would be interesting to see a comparison between the BMU and a mains regenerator for instance. That would be interesting and I have thought about making that comparison one day. |
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Post by MikeMusic on Nov 19, 2015 8:29:36 GMT
I'd like to hear BMU v's PS Audio too
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Post by John on Nov 19, 2015 12:11:02 GMT
In the past I was very tempted to get a NVA power amp due to its good SQ but went down a different route
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