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Post by MartinT on Apr 1, 2015 20:48:41 GMT
The sound is intensely dynamic and immediate, rasping, brash up front and above all LOUD. That has been my mantra too, Tony, and it's so appropriate to a discussion of speakers that it's worth pulling your quote out here. A sax or drum kit heard up close is a shockingly visceral experience; the rasp of a trumpet can be quite stunning and sometimes almost unpleasant. A jazz drumkit is full of powerful transient edges to a degree that you will rarely hear in reproduction. The power of an orchestra with full choir giving it everything during the Dies Irae in Verdi's Requiem can be so intense that you would never, ever, forget the experience. To even approach playing this music in your living room requires big, dynamic speakers of exactly the type of models you quote. Small speakers simply need not apply. You also need clean amplifier headroom of the order of hundreds of Watts for average sensitivity models. This isn't all about bass power and depth, either. Try k d lang in full song at realistic levels and you will need midrange power and cleanliness that is beyond most systems I've ever heard. I would go so far as to say that the midrange element of this discussion is the most important to get right, and the area where speaker development in the last couple of decades has yielded the greatest improvements. It's called scale, and it's central to getting that feeling of bringing the performance into your room.
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Post by danielquinn on Apr 2, 2015 9:27:45 GMT
Scale is a term I would say is only relevant to orchestra music and I say this from a postion of ignorance . as cause it is mostly without lyrics is necessarily crap and I do not listen to it . I listen to rock music , it is amplified , even drums are miked and amplified . Billy Bragg , one man an a guitar will not have scale as it is amplified music . thus even if you go to listen the live , instruments do not have a natural scale , it will be dependent upon size of venue and the speakers [grateful dead wall of sound speakers ] Furthermore . , most albums were not recorded with a view to presenting a life size scale. whatever that may mean vis-a-vis an amplified instrument . Accordingly , large speakers do not per se present a more life like presentation of scale than small ones . It will be room and speaker quality dependent. scale in rock music , possibly all music is analogous to don quixote's monster .
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Post by pre65 on Apr 2, 2015 9:37:21 GMT
and I say this from a position of ignorance
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Post by danielquinn on Apr 2, 2015 9:55:19 GMT
put that in just for you
I was giving the benefit of doubt as i dont listen to classical music but can appreciate that an orchestra does have an unamplified scale .
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Post by MikeMusic on Apr 2, 2015 13:02:48 GMT
I still remember Tony Williams Lifetime at Birmingham Town Hall circa 1971
It was so *LOUD* Like being thumped in the face loud
Wonderful as well
Think a lot of punters just sat their with mouths open I'd like to know how much power they were putting out, in a not that big place
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2015 11:05:02 GMT
Do you want rock concert scale of presentation in your living room? If so save some money and buy a stack of pro monitors and amps. Hi-fi is more about subtlety and presenting the nuances of a musical performance. Very large speakers are not required and small ones in a small space may well perform better. In fact I cannot see Westminster Royals working unless you own a stately home or a tythe barn.
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Post by pre65 on Apr 4, 2015 11:24:56 GMT
I built some small full range speakers, and they sounded really good, if a bit light in the bass region.
When I integrated them with an 18" Fane woofer, and a simple series crossover, the overall effect was much better.
For two reasons.
1) The Fane woofer handled low notes much better.
2) The crossover relieved the full range of it's bass duties and so the mid and upper sounded better.
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Post by julesd68 on Apr 4, 2015 11:30:46 GMT
This is why I love my Tannoy HPD's - just as at home with cranking out Black Sabbath as chamber music...
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Post by MartinT on Apr 4, 2015 12:47:06 GMT
Do you want rock concert scale of presentation in your living room? Neither possible nor desirable, on account of most rock concerts sounding shit. For me, the aim is to reproduce a concert orchestra in full flow. Not possible either, but far more desirable from the point of view of trying to get acoustic instruments sounding right.
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Post by Mr Whippy on Apr 4, 2015 18:11:21 GMT
Don't know what the cost of the system might have been, and I suppose it does a reasonable stab at it, but the differences are pretty obvious, even on my mobile and 'phones.
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Post by pre65 on Apr 4, 2015 21:30:44 GMT
Do you want rock concert scale of presentation in your living room? Neither possible nor desirable, on account of most rock concerts sounding shit. I cannot agree more, rock has never floated my boat.
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Post by MartinT on Apr 4, 2015 21:31:47 GMT
I wasn't commenting on the music
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Post by pre65 on Apr 4, 2015 21:35:06 GMT
I wasn't commenting on the music Oh, but I was.
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Post by Greg on Apr 4, 2015 21:42:01 GMT
A certain owner of another forum would likely challenge that view
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Post by Greg on Apr 4, 2015 21:47:07 GMT
Don't know what the cost of the system might have been, and I suppose it does a reasonable stab at it, but the differences are pretty obvious, even on my mobile and 'phones. Not sure if that proves anything. I'm sure most of us would prefer a live presentation over a recorded one and what you have shown us is a recording of a live presentation versus a recording of a recording of a live presentation.
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Post by Mr Whippy on Apr 4, 2015 22:24:20 GMT
Well, I didn't say it did prove anything, and I don't know if the maker would say that it does either.
And yes, it is a recording of a live event and a recording of a recording of that live event. How else would we get to see/hear it, not being present at the time?
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Post by gazjam on Apr 4, 2015 22:25:55 GMT
I took the leap of faith with speakers built by a passionate music lover....my statics remain in the attic awaiting an unforeseen windfall to refurbish them. My son is enjoying my donated Spendors. I have never looked back-best sound ive had in my room for really justifiable outlay. Yup, Heard Tony's speakers they are sublime in his room. Took a similar path with my own speakers and never looked back. These guys deserve support!
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Post by John on Apr 5, 2015 6:32:59 GMT
Some interesting views around getting the best out of rock music I personally prefer big speakers as to get the energy that is clearly in the recordings from bands like Deep Purple Led Zep Dream Theater etc you need good mid to bass grunt/energy that I like to feel in my body (I have heard one stand mount speaker that can do this). However I also want my speakers to be able to do subtle too. Hard balances to achieve
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Post by jandl100 on Apr 5, 2015 6:42:05 GMT
Some interesting views around getting the best out of rock music I personally prefer big speakers as to get the energy that is clearly in the recordings from bands like Deep Purple Led Zep Dream Theater etc you need good mid to bass grunt/energy that I like to feel in my body (I have heard one stand mount speaker that can do this). However I also want my speakers to be able to do subtle too. Hard balances to achieve I agree with that. Very difficult to achieve a speaker than can make a good stab at doing it all. I found, sadly, and after years of enjoyable box-swapping of literally dozens of the things in many guises, that I just had to throw a lot of money at the problem to make what I consider to be a very good stab at it.
It's different with electronics (amplification and digital), ime & imo, where there need be little correlation between performance and cost. Maybe it's an electrical/mechanical transducer thing? Speakers (and vinyl cartridges) - are they the real challenges of audio engineering?
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Post by AlanS on Apr 5, 2015 9:26:13 GMT
As i made a pair of speakers years ago and then spend some time adjusting the sound care of crossover, padding and things cabinet to closer to my liking I feel I learned enough to know that I know nothing.
But I do recognise unpleasantness.
They were a bit toppy and over damped. I blame myself. I still have them, wonder what 200W will do rather then the 20W that used to coax them.
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